Post-Game Discussion Manly v Sharks [Round 11, 2023]

[Bearfax]

I dont think the current reaction time of the squad is where it should be, but being more aware, informed, or planned can only help reaction time for a better outcome. Just makes a little sense

our kick game is pretty routine with routine being the problem
kick from behind the line
mid field bomb
most offside
have to stay within 10
player gets head of steam, allows to choose impact, isolate defenders to help next play
repeat

this also impacts the teams ability to move as a speedy cohesive line. Just routine average expectation , mostly with a defensive outlook

our kick chase game is woeful and has been under consecutive coaches. Under barret it was an plan to find the line at all costs often sacrificing 40 m as we had such issues defending our kicks

just some other observations that i see relevant

Good kicks rely very much on positioning on the field. If the side isnt making enough ground, then unless its a 40-20, the kicks are routine because there's no where else to go. What I think Manly need are forward enforcers ( I was hoping Woods would fulfil that role), who make big ground. Tough defense (they are dropping off 30-45 tackles a game in recent times, way too much). Strategic ball play. I think Croker is an excellent defender and plays his guts out, like Parker, but both lack diversity in attack, and both tend to be ponderous. Johns is solid but not an effective ball player. From my perspective when Schuster was unavailable, Weekes was a better option and when Schuster is back Weekes should join Koula in the centres. Chan desperately needed at hooker. Slowly at first off the bench, but Manly needs creativity, forwards that take control and stronger defense. The kicking will be far more effective when Manly are consistently in their attack zone.

 

[Seagles68]

Good kicks rely very much on positioning on the field. If the side isnt making enough ground, then unless its a 40-20, the kicks are routine because there's no where else to go. What I think Manly need are forward enforcers ( I was hoping Woods would fulfil that role), who make big ground. Tough defense (they are dropping off 30-45 tackles a game in recent times, way too much). Strategic ball play. I think Croker is an excellent defender and plays his guts out, like Parker, but both lack diversity in attack, and both tend to be ponderous. Johns is solid but not an effective ball player. From my perspective when Schuster was unavailable, Weekes was a better option and when Schuster is back Weekes should join Koula in the centres. Chan desperately needed at hooker. Slowly at first off the bench, but Manly needs creativity, forwards that take control and stronger defense. The kicking will be far more effective when Manly are consistently in their attack zone.

Agree with you Bear except I never thought Woods would be an enforcer type and he's shown he isn't. Solid but not the enforcer we need. Josh A keeps presenting himself as that person but really, he isn't either. I hate to say it but he seems all tip and no iceberg when it comes to being that bloke. The only real go forward we have is Paseka (and he really has stepped it up like we hoped he would) but he needs help. Keppie wants to be the enforcer but there's something missing. I'm still holding out hope but time is running out. Sipley has shown glimpses but injury and fitness lets him down. His current holiday hasn't helped either. Haumole can also be that bloke at times but is inconsistent. So, now as I write this, there is clearly the manpower to be an aggressive and intimidating pack but they 1) don't work as a pack or 2) can't produce it consistently. We could really do with a Ben Kennedy type to get these blokes focussed. Or even someone like Nik Kosef. Great ball skills and tough as nails.

And as much as I admire Parks, I think the time has come to try Weekes in the centres. And yep, Chan off the bench working with Croker. And the sooner we see a fit and firing Schu, the better. Johns just gives us nothing.

 

[NREagle]

Not sure if this has been posted already....

Don Singe attended Golden Eagles Day.

The club posted some photos today on their Instagram and below is his comment on their post, and on his own page...gotta love Donny.

 

[jbb/james]

Good kicks rely very much on positioning on the field. If the side isnt making enough ground, then unless its a 40-20, the kicks are routine because there's no where else to go. What I think Manly need are forward enforcers ( I was hoping Woods would fulfil that role), who make big ground. Tough defense (they are dropping off 30-45 tackles a game in recent times, way too much). Strategic ball play. I think Croker is an excellent defender and plays his guts out, like Parker, but both lack diversity in attack, and both tend to be ponderous. Johns is solid but not an effective ball player. From my perspective when Schuster was unavailable, Weekes was a better option and when Schuster is back Weekes should join Koula in the centres. Chan desperately needed at hooker. Slowly at first off the bench, but Manly needs creativity, forwards that take control and stronger defense. The kicking will be far more effective when Manly are consistently in their attack zone.

Morning Bear

momentum and forward thrust are a kickers best friend. absolutely
tom takes many 5th tackle runs to provide a nice play the ball and does a lot. sure we lost some ground in the arm wrestle, but the wrestle has many stages
the onus is on the kicker to position themselves best to benefit the team. Again part of the wrestle, if he can kick from the line he also provides the team momentum , a possible run it on 5th, an onside chase. this is a very rare moment for us

sometimes this is difficult for all teams. we dont seem to think its part of the wrestle though, a bit like hasseling there kicker, allowing there back 5 easy unchallanged access to the ball,

but teams persist with this winning tactic.......sheeesh. cant fool us

Yes DCE has worked tirelessly for a couple of weeks, run the ball a couple of times but either try to kick in the line a few times or let someone else. a shorter kicker who puts there body on the line can gain more ground. we need more field position from DCE and less tackling from him as a consequence of no game management

DCE has championship qualities, he has close to the best tyson knock out punch, but he jabs like a wet lettuce so its haymakers at the 11th hour and the first. manly dont have a squad that can get us into the big rounds to carry the big punch, primarily because we ignored the jab and built a game around the king hit.

not a bad bloke it seems, talented as hell, but from my perspective an anchor to success because we dont tick the basics box in the 7. we just dont really play NRL

we are pretty bad at times with forward thrust YES
but we are bad always at DCE kicking in the line YES
one doesnt excuse the other, NO
can make it tougher YES
still have to try YES
do we try and fail NO
so have we really tried

 

[LeonardCohen]

Morning Bear

momentum and forward thrust are a kickers best friend. absolutely
tom takes many 5th tackle runs to provide a nice play the ball and does a lot. sure we lost some ground in the arm wrestle, but the wrestle has many stages
the onus is on the kicker to position themselves best to benefit the team. Again part of the wrestle, if he can kick from the line he also provides the team momentum , a possible run it on 5th, an onside chase. this is a very rare moment for us

sometimes this is difficult for all teams. we dont seem to think its part of the wrestle though, a bit like hasseling there kicker, allowing there back 5 easy unchallanged access to the ball,

but teams persist with this winning tactic.......sheeesh. cant fool us

Yes DCE has worked tirelessly for a couple of weeks, run the ball a couple of times but either try to kick in the line a few times or let someone else. a shorter kicker who puts there body on the line can gain more ground. we need more field position from DCE and less tackling from him as a consequence of no game management

DCE has championship qualities, he has close to the best tyson knock out punch, but he jabs like a wet lettuce so its haymakers at the 11th hour and the first. manly dont have a squad that can get us into the big rounds to carry the big punch, primarily because we ignored the jab and built a game around the king hit.

not a bad bloke it seems, talented as hell, but from my perspective an anchor to success because we dont tick the basics box in the 7. we just dont really play NRL

we are pretty bad at times with forward thrust YES
but we are bad always at DCE kicking in the line YES
one doesnt excuse the other, NO
can make it tougher YES
still have to try YES
do we try and fail NO
so have we really tried

The players you see kicking in the line are doing so off a quick play-the-ball. The only way you can kick on the front foot is when you’re forwards are winning the ruck consistently. The opposition need to be ‘collectively’ back-pedalling or you can bet someone will jump out and pressure the kicker to the point that it’ll end up being a worse kick than it might have been, had the kicker stayed deep.

DCE has never been the greatest game manager, but I can’t heap blame on him for his kicking tactics at present. It’s so far from the reason we’re in a heap right now…I’m sure there are always ways to improve any area of the game, but our kicking game is at the bottom of list, whist our rubbish forward pack offer our playmakers nothing.

 

[Bearfax]

Morning Bear

momentum and forward thrust are a kickers best friend. absolutely
tom takes many 5th tackle runs to provide a nice play the ball and does a lot. sure we lost some ground in the arm wrestle, but the wrestle has many stages
the onus is on the kicker to position themselves best to benefit the team. Again part of the wrestle, if he can kick from the line he also provides the team momentum , a possible run it on 5th, an onside chase. this is a very rare moment for us

sometimes this is difficult for all teams. we dont seem to think its part of the wrestle though, a bit like hasseling there kicker, allowing there back 5 easy unchallanged access to the ball,

but teams persist with this winning tactic.......sheeesh. cant fool us

Yes DCE has worked tirelessly for a couple of weeks, run the ball a couple of times but either try to kick in the line a few times or let someone else. a shorter kicker who puts there body on the line can gain more ground. we need more field position from DCE and less tackling from him as a consequence of no game management

DCE has championship qualities, he has close to the best tyson knock out punch, but he jabs like a wet lettuce so its haymakers at the 11th hour and the first. manly dont have a squad that can get us into the big rounds to carry the big punch, primarily because we ignored the jab and built a game around the king hit.

not a bad bloke it seems, talented as hell, but from my perspective an anchor to success because we dont tick the basics box in the 7. we just dont really play NRL

we are pretty bad at times with forward thrust YES
but we are bad always at DCE kicking in the line YES
one doesnt excuse the other, NO
can make it tougher YES
still have to try YES
do we try and fail NO
so have we really tried

Problem is Jbb, every team knows DCE is Manly's key player, so they know who to target. DCE is in my opinion one of the best kickers in the game. DCE is the king of the 40-20 though this year he's behind Hunt. He's a top field goal kicker with both feet. He has one of the top 3 highest kicks in the NRL and one of the longest. He's fairly clever with his kicks...remember his kicks to Olakau'atu and Saab. I dont think there are many in the game, perhaps Hunt, who match him. And he's a top goal kicker. Problem is when you are the primary kicker, and no one else in the side is there to do the duty, you're a target when kicking. And remember he's also one of the best half defenders in the game, which can tire. I think with Schuster alongside him you'll see a different range of kicking. Schuster was always a clever though not long range kicker, so the diversity should benefit. As long as Schuster has his head on straight.

 

[jbb/james]

The players you see kicking in the line are doing so off a quick play-the-ball. The only way you can kick on the front foot is when you’re forwards are winning the ruck consistently. The opposition need to be ‘collectively’ back-pedalling or you can bet someone will jump out and pressure the kicker to the point that it’ll end up being a worse kick than it might have been, had the kicker stayed deep.

DCE has never been the greatest game manager, but I can’t heap blame on him for his kicking tactics at present. It’s so far from the reason we’re in a heap right now…I’m sure there are always ways to improve any area of the game, but our kicking game is at the bottom of list, whist our rubbish forward pack offer our playmakers nothing.

agree

im not talking about a lack of opportunity, rather a lack of willingness
knowing that his genuine at line kicks in a season are very few its not at all right to consider he never gets opportunity. when space allows he invariably plays big rather than from within-

his kicks on 3rd and 4th have a fair bit of speculator in them

man , you talk good footy for sure, as do others but i can not buy that. winning the ruck is big and his margins may be skinner than those that have a better system but there is a complete lack of investigating

his genuine line runs over the last few years have been very low
not this play accross field and get trapped as playing in the line stat
same with kicks
run of matches without injury
manlys grittiness
tom playing forans get smashed role
all connected says confucius

your welcome to all the oldies that hasnt heard
counfucius says..... for donkeys yonks

 

[jbb/james]

Problem is Jbb, every team knows DCE is Manly's key player, so they know who to target. DCE is in my opinion one of the best kickers in the game. DCE is the king of the 40-20 though this year he's behind Hunt. He's a top field goal kicker with both feet. He has one of the top 3 highest kicks in the NRL and one of the longest. He's fairly clever with his kicks...remember his kicks to Olakau'atu and Saab. I dont think there are many in the game, perhaps Hunt, who match him. And he's a top goal kicker. Problem is when you are the primary kicker, and no one else in the side is there to do the duty, you're a target when kicking. And remember he's also one of the best half defenders in the game, which can tire. I think with Schuster alongside him you'll see a different range of kicking. Schuster was always a clever though not long range kicker, so the diversity should benefit. As long as Schuster has his head on straight.

the first 3 lines i would write myself . all true but thats kicking and not an NRL kicking game. i would say 5 or 6 years ago i called him Happy Gilmore for the same reason. best boot, just not the best overall game. too many duds amongst the diamonds really
his kicking tends to be over tricky at the basics, yet we are just not in the game with short drop outs or kick offs so is that connected

DCE is targetted so he has shut up shop with being crafty on the last.
foran was here last year, same thing. not new . we had 2 kickers

interesting . in the off season, DCE and schuster went kick practice in AFL land
Bloody hell penns ROI must be taking a hit. seemed extravagant

 

[Bearfax]

the first 3 lines i would write myself . all true but thats kicking and not an NRL kicking game. i would say 5 or 6 years ago i called him Happy Gilmore for the same reason. best boot, just not the best overall game. too many duds amongst the diamonds really
his kicking tends to be over tricky at the basics, yet we are just not in the game with short drop outs or kick offs so is that connected

DCE is targetted so he has shut up shop with being crafty on the last.
foran was here last year, same thing. not new . we had 2 kickers

interesting . in the off season, DCE and schuster went kick practice in AFL land
Bloody hell penns ROI must be taking a hit. seemed extravagant

Difficult for a player who has to do most of the creative stuff in the side. And he's an individualist, not a ball player. That's why Manly desperately needs someone like Schuster, and if that fails Weekes or Latu Fainu if he develops as we hope. And a clever hooker...we can hope Chan is the answer because we really miss Manese Fainu who was a master hooker in the making. Manly lacks the creativity, the actions that make the other team uncertain about what happens next. At present and for the past 5-6 years, we've had a pedestrian back line. There's no zazz. They need someone who does the unexpected and creates space for Turbo, Grarrick, Saab and Koula. At present they are being wasted. And yes a clever short kicking game. DCE has it but I think Schuster will be better at it. ...or at least I hope so. Manly has some very good players. They just arent working as a unit in defense or attack. Kicking is only one of many components that needs addressing.

 

[Go manly]

And when we make space for Tom -then what ?