Leaders, followers, standards , culture

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jbb/james

First Grader
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Seems to be a lot of hope that buying players from top clubs brings success

the best clubs are the best because of there leaders, not there followers. The followers play an important role but they do not set the standards or culture, they adhere to it. The followers are always on the market, the leaders rarely

Buying these fringe players and expecting tnem to inspire those standards in our team or others that already have a strong leadership group is wildly hopeful and somewhat unrealistic

the roosters got cronk and it was the big move that achieved results because of who he was, not where he came from, where brandon smith, not so much as an example, expensive spine players from melbourne coached by bellamy dont bring success, the leaderships and standards do

our leadership group need to set the standards higher and while some skill and grunt would be handy acquisition to our style and results we are not going to replace culture without a multi million dollar turnover in our cap,

so wether we buy from the tigers, or the riff, the outcome in the standard manly set, stays the same unless we change our leadership group with a better one, or overnight they become more ruthless and resilient

we constantly wish fringe players, youth and fringe money will shape our established mindset . It wont

a front rower wont stop us from blowing 22 or 30 point leads or giving up soft late tries by the dozen unless he is the team alpha that demands more from the players around him, and at manly can you realy see that happening. Its a nice steady set up at manlys leadership , everyone knows there place it seems .very public service looking from afar.

the riff and storm can buy from ipswich because they have the standard in place, the culture. Its not about a spine .

our culture/standard isnt where it needs to be . Its that simple really and buying all of penriffs fringeys wont change much
 

BOZO

Journey Man
Tipping Member
You are right feathered friend
The Greatest asset of any Great Organization are the Great people that it Invests in
We have people running the club that can not live up to their own Results Driven Business Standards

Look at Tigers who they Invested in and Look where they are now

Lee Hagipantelis is No Nick Politis
1699395285420.png
 

Ryan

Journey Man
Great post mate, and I agree 100%. When we last required huge improvement in our culture and performance say 2005 odd, we started by adding one / two marquee players at a time (Kennedy / Kite), to add to our up-and-coming juniors (Watmough / Stewart's / Matai) etc.

Those types of additions, not only can talk the talk (like I'm sure Aloiai, Waddell, Brown, James, Woods & the other washed up cast offs can), but could then back that up with actions (like this players can't).

Kennedy was perfect for us because not only did he set a standard both on and off the field, he stuck to it on the field, and often exceeded that.

We need to acquire our players from boutique high end high priced outlets, not Cosco and Walmart en masse, like we are.

Our club is great at TALK (premiership windows and rosters for example), yet fail to deliver on the field. If someone did the stats of how many top 8 teams we've beaten in the last two whole years, they'd be disgusted, and rightfully so..

BUT, like the club, our fans expectations and standards have also plummeted, so the mediocrity we are watching, isn't only accepted by some, it's now celebrated by many.

What a sad state our entire club is at. As Didier Drogba said recently, I don't recognise this club I once loved.
 

jbb/james

First Grader
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Great post mate, and I agree 100%. When we last required huge improvement in our culture and performance say 2005 odd, we started by adding one / two marquee players at a time (Kennedy / Kite), to add to our up-and-coming juniors (Watmough / Stewart's / Matai) etc.

Those types of additions, not only can talk the talk (like I'm sure Aloiai, Waddell, Brown, James, Woods & the other washed up cast offs can), but could then back that up with actions (like this players can't).

Kennedy was perfect for us because not only did he set a standard both on and off the field, he stuck to it on the field, and often exceeded that.

We need to acquire our players from boutique high end high priced outlets, not Cosco and Walmart en masse, like we are.

Our club is great at TALK (premiership windows and rosters for example), yet fail to deliver on the field. If someone did the stats of how many top 8 teams we've beaten in the last two whole years, they'd be disgusted, and rightfully so..

BUT, like the club, our fans expectations and standards have also plummeted, so the mediocrity we are watching, isn't only accepted by some, it's now celebrated by many.

What a sad state our entire club is at. As Didier Drogba said recently, I don't recognise this club I once loved.
the other thing about BK is that at the time we were crying out for leadership. the group wanted to be shown the way, as much as he wanted to lead as we were coming off the back of being broke and had very few stars or egos, just emeging talent. The timing was as much of the success as BK was

would a BK or a james graham work now at manly with such an established leadership group in place.. It would take some ego adjusting at the very least and probably a lot more.

what player on 300k is going to tell dce or a turbo to get there **** together and not be moved on next season
its still a workplace,and the leadership group are the onfield managers or supervisors and when something breaks its always the underlings to blame
Im not talking about the leads we blow but even when we win games for at least a
decade we always let in soft tries in the last 5 minutes, sometimes 2

thats the supervisors knocking off early IMO. we just dont have our mind on for and against until we are only a mathematical chance of making the 8 in round 20

we are only semi professional in so many areas
 

Ryan

Journey Man
the other thing about BK is that at the time we were crying out for leadership. the group wanted to be shown the way, as much as he wanted to lead as we were coming off the back of being broke and had very few stars or egos, just emeging talent. The timing was as much of the success as BK was

would a BK or a james graham work now at manly with such an established leadership group in place.. It would take some ego adjusting at the very least and probably a lot more.

what player on 300k is going to tell dce or a turbo to get there **** together and not be moved on next season
its still a workplace,and the leadership group are the onfield managers or supervisors and when something breaks its always the underlings to blame
Im not talking about the leads we blow but even when we win games for at least a
decade we always let in soft tries in the last 5 minutes, sometimes 2

thats the supervisors knocking off early IMO. we just dont have our mind on for and against until we are only a mathematical chance of making the 8 in round 20

we are only semi professional in so many areas
Perfect analogy mate, and for the record, that's not a negative take, it's realism, with a sense of hope for change included (which is positive for mine).

Fair play to Siebold and Mestrov though, they've brought in the rah rah International health and fitness group, and they've acquired Michael Ennis, so behind the scenes there are moving parts hoping & building towards that change.

My main beef is the spasmodic recruitment / retention over the past decade. We've needed targetted recruitment (character / class) and what we've got is stubbornness (sticking with a Hooker who's come 4th, 11th, 12th, 15th - showing it just doesn't work for example).

No more job for the boys. Who CARES if the Trbojevic's recommend Waddell? If Moses demands an expensive contract for Lodge. If Tartak fleeces us on Schuster and Olakau'atu. These players have and are achieving NOTHING at Manly, and I'd say vice versa, they are hurting our depth $$$$ demand wise, while their output for us is nominal. What makes it worse, is some are amazing at state / international levels, but absolute crap for us (despite one good year). Time for all our players to ship up, or ship out. One more injury to Tom, see ya later. Jake needs a serious contract revision. We don't need the Waddell, Parker, Matterson, Croker contracts / extensions. We need focused, dedicated, forward thinking, market leading recruitment.
 

mosto

I have a well known member
Premium Member
I think we have strong off field leadership that sets a good culture within the playing group. DCE, Jake, Turbo, Croker are all complete professionals. Aloiai IMO is less so but seems to hold a similar influence (at least to part of the playing group) as those 4 players. For that reason, along with his substandard on field performances, I believe he needs to go.

On field, outside of DCE, we do lack that 'follow me' type player, particularly in the forwards. Jake does to a degree, but he is a workhorse who lacks that big impact play that inspires team mates there and then. Ola has the impact but he is very much like a young Watmough was when we signed Kennedy, impactful but needs someone to follow. We need someone with the ability and instinct to pull off a big play when we need it. DCE can do it with a 40/20 but we need something similar in the forwards. In the late 90's I was at a semi v Newcastle. It was late in the game and the momentum was certainly with the Knights. We had the ball and were getting hammered in defence. Nik Kosef was down getting treatment about 20m behind the play. Watching what was going on upfield, he jumped up, pushed the trainer away and ran the 20m demanding the ball. He broke straight through the line and in a split second turned the momentum back to Manly. The way the team lifted after that one play was incredible. We need someone who can not only do something like that, but has the instinct and game awareness to know when it's needed. Matai had the same impact with his defence. Turbo has the ability to turn a game instantly but we need him on the field. I'm somewhat hopeful Brown has it in him if he signs (remember Kennedy was supposedly a washed up has been when he came to Manly).

Now, as for outside the playing group, we don't have anyone in place that inspires me with confidence and I suspect the players feel the same. The roster is now more or less one that Siebold has assembled so he needs to start achieving some results. What I'm concerned with is his ability to inspire players in the way Bellamy, Cleary, Bennett, Des etc do. Then there's the front office and owners. Nothing there inspires any sort of optimism or sense that the club is on an upward trajectory unfortunately.
 

SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
he best clubs are the best because of there leaders, not there followers.
Excellent post! Although I disagree with your premise that we lack the necessary leadership. We have a few who set the right level of professionalism and effort, but Turbo is the key. He's the one who is that ruthless winner, but it's been hard for him to lead with all his injury woes.
When we last required huge improvement in our culture and performance say 2005 odd, we started by adding one / two marquee players at a time
I'll disagree and say it was actually Hasler who set the ruthless winning culture back then. Kennedy was the player he brought in to show the young squad how to put it in practice.
 

BOZO

Journey Man
Tipping Member
. If Tartak fleeces us on Schuster and Olakau'atu. These players have and are achieving NOTHING at Manly, and I'd say vice versa, they are hurting our depth $$$$ demand wise, while their output for us is nominal. What makes it worse, is some are amazing at state / international levels, but absolute crap for us
I Totally disagree with you here feathered friend

Olakauta is the rock solid foundations of any Building Premiership Winning Roster and is a player to keep at all costs

As for the underachieving Schuster , Play him under Great Leaders of Men like Bennet and Bellamy and the Shu will Kick Arse Big Time .
 

jbb/james

First Grader
Premium Member
Tipping Member
Excellent post! Although I disagree with your premise that we lack the necessary leadership. We have a few who set the right level of professionalism and effort, but Turbo is the key. He's the one who is that ruthless winner, but it's been hard for him to lead with all his injury woes.

I'll disagree and say it was actually Hasler who set the ruthless winning culture back then. Kennedy was the player he brought in to show the young squad how to put it in practice.
I agree 100% about turbo. He is our steely eyed hard arse .. he has the teacher/student affect on the team

But its a lone hand he plays and he is injured a lot.

do we just accept that its turbo or 14th. surely the teams style should improve yearly with him addidng the cherry on top. Your beautifully optimistic about our side at all times but are we really improving under the turboless leadership

Blowing unassialable leads often
soft tries in the last 5 minutes almost always
finding new and embarrasing ways to surrender posession almost always
kick but no chase, dont start me
last to adopt short kickoffs

those basics have hung with manly for years and havnt looked like improving under a turboless leadership, and frankly thats not good enough. Nothing to do with results, just having the team competing for 80 minutes and not allowing basic fundamentals biting you on the arse weekly

surely that comes under leadership
the best leaders would be going ape ****. Maybe at manly our leaders have so many mistakes themselves that calling them out is futile

Professionalism and effort is ticking boxes and is not leadership. And ticking boxes is the start and end of most of Manlys on field woe. again very public service like
 

SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
One could argue that Arthurson was the obsessive driving force that got Manly to the top in the 70s, Bozo did similar in the 80s and 90s, and Hasler was the driving force behind our last great era.

Which would mean in each case it was someone with an almost pathological fixation on winning, someone off-field - that drove the club's on-field fortunes.

So far neither Penn, Mestrov nor Seibold looks anything like those other 3 winners. Not only that, but Mestrov and Seibold can only do as much as Penn makes possible.

I haven't given up on them yet, I'm still hoping Seibs and Mestrov can become outstanding in their work. They do have some potential... (!)

Charlie Crist GIF by GIPHY News
 

jbb/james

First Grader
Premium Member
Tipping Member
One could argue that Arthurson was the obsessive driving force that got Manly to the top in the 70s, Bozo did similar in the 80s and 90s, and Hasler was the driving force behind our last great era.

Which would mean in each case it was someone with an almost pathological fixation on winning, someone off-field - that drove the club's on-field fortunes.

So far neither Penn, Mestrov nor Seibold looks anything like those other 3 winners. Not only that, but Mestrov and Seibold can only do as much as Penn makes possible.

I haven't given up on them yet, I'm still hoping Seibs and Mestrov can become outstanding in their work. They do have some potential... (!)

Charlie Crist GIF by GIPHY News
Des and the team was able to find success while manlys off field was the worst its ever been in our history first stint. The stewarts,foran, kitey, jamie lyon, jason king, matai,watmough era was as strong a leadership group ive witnessed in all of manlys great teams

We have had plenty of great teams but that team had leaders

Arko was strong enough to let the immortal bozo and fatty walk even though we had no cap when there job and value was done

penn and his army of ceo’s has not helped, but are not to blame for the lack of on field basics orteams scorng in the 78th minute when we are by 14

as for seibs, i dont think he has gone backwards from des. I also felt the coaching input had a big impact on chezs best season. His role evolved quite a bit
 

BOZO

Journey Man
Tipping Member
penn and his army of ceo’s has not helped, but are not to blame for the lack of on field basics orteams scorng in the 78th minute when we are by 14

as for seibs, i dont think he has gone backwards from des. I also felt the coaching input had a big impact on chezs best season. His role evolved quite a bit

The Penn and Seibold Perspective reply

Great leadership is taking accountability in the way an Organization runs wither it be runs on the board or runs on the field
Great leaders set the example and have the courage to lead by example for all to follow and take ownership for poor results rather then pass the buck . Those standards are what inspires and creates a Greater responsible culture

Seibold has gone one place down from the 2022 NRL ladder and this means he has gone back wards this season . Evolve means to make progress and we regressed
 

Ryan

Journey Man
Excellent post! Although I disagree with your premise that we lack the necessary leadership. We have a few who set the right level of professionalism and effort, but Turbo is the key. He's the one who is that ruthless winner, but it's been hard for him to lead with all his injury woes.

I'll disagree and say it was actually Hasler who set the ruthless winning culture back then. Kennedy was the player he brought in to show the young squad how to put it in practice.

Agree with you on that front too - Dessie turned us into a well oiled machine, that's for sure. I also think he had heaps to do with recruitment as well at the time.

To @jbb/james I DO hope Koula swapping to the 1 in the event Turbo goes down again might mitigate that issue. We have so many centres to fill in if he does drop: Parker, Garrick, Talau, Paulo, Tuipulotu could all play there.
 

BOZO

Journey Man
Tipping Member
I haven't given up on them yet, I'm still hoping Seibs and Mestrov can become outstanding in their work. They do have some potential... (!)
In am with you feathered friend
Manly Supporters never give up on their club
Never have and Never Will
We only give up on losers just like all Winning clubs do
The fact is ..
If you want to start Winning
it is Imperative that you give up on your losers and upgrade
 

SeaEagleRock8

Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
Tipping Member
it is Imperative that you give up on your losers and upgrade
"Losers"? That's not a very fair way to think about people, as 'losers'!!
Let alone anyone who has ever taken the field in first grade, risking skin blood and bone for the cause of the mighty Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles, and as a result proudly owns a player number, forever recorded as a badge of honour in this club.

You talk (incessantly!) about our great club's glorious history and benchmark standards of success, but all the players contribute to this great history. Not only the select few who manage to do a lap of honour on grand final day.

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