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Josh Starling

Discussion in 'Rugby League Forum' started by Ryan, Apr 16, 2014.

  1. Ryan

    Ryan Well-Known Member

    +9,387 /402
    Sorry guys, I think we have better options. I don't know why he starts over other players, I don't get his minutes played, and I certainly don't get his value, especially when you look at the props we have let go.

    Josh Starling makes an average of 94 metres per game this season as a starting prop, which is quite a fair way off say Aiden Tolman for The Bulldogs who averages 166 metres per game, or Aaron Woods for The Tigers who averages 154 metres per game.

    I picked those players because of the similarity in ages, weight etc, and of similar position. Why then, with an amazing team around him, can't Starling reciprocate those numbers?

    Starling makes an average of 20 tackles per game, where the above two mentioned opposition players average 34 tackles and 28 tackles per game, so not only do they run further, they work harder.

    Additionally, as we unfortunately know, they are able to get the ball over the line to chip in offensively.

    But what have we given up to acquire a player like Starling. Brent Kite is averaging 105 metres per game.

    On the flip side, Starling RARELY misses tackles (one per game), and has had one error in him all season, so consistency wise, he is outstanding, there's no doubts about that.

    He's not an impact player, nor does he add second phase play (meaning he's a one dimensional player).

    I then looked at what I deemed to be an impact player and compared stats - Jared Waerah-Hargraves - and I was surprised to note JWH only makes on average 3 metres more per game, but then noticed he tackles 150% more than Starling at 29 tackles per game, quite often turning over the ball (although running the risk of being penalised).

    Ok, I could compare Starling to many other starting props to prove my point.

    I think we need to start Jason King (or someone else), have Buhrer, Symonds and two props on the bench (ideally Lui / JSL) or that new fellow. We need more impact in the forwards - a plodder (pylon) is not what we need when we have guys like Choc / Buhrer / Stewart in the backrow - all skilled guys.

    Am I being too harsh?
    • Like Like x 3
    • The Indian

      The Indian Well-Known Member

      +446 /14
      I agree Starling is ordinary ( so far at least ) and I have been very underwhelmed by him generally. BUT if he is going to be in the team I reckon he has probably go to start cause he is definitely not an impact player at all - more a toiler who like you say doesn't make too many mistakes. Very much like an Aiden Tolman type.

      But I don't buy into the whole metres and yards per game - some yards are easier than others & have no value. Can be misleading. I judge him on his impact beyond the stats.....and in most ball carries he is wrapped up comfortably and manhandled by his opposites, and in defence he clings on more than hits & hurts. True he doesn't miss too many tackles - and he is only young and you cant knock a bloke who is trying- but you'd like to see something above "just solid" soon.
      • Like Like x 1
      • anthonyb1965

        anthonyb1965 GO Manly Premium Member 2017 Tipping Competitor

        +893 /25
        Tend to agree although he has steady improved since round 1.
      • mosto

        mosto I have a well known member Premium Member 2017 Tipping Competitor

        +1,262 /12
        I'm keen to see how he goes over the next couple of weeks. He's been uninspiring in the first few weeks, but thought he had his best game so far on the weekend and thought his work rate was up on previous weeks, so hopefully this is a sign of things to come. I don't think he's ever going to be a flashy prop with an offload in him, but if he can start grinding out 150+ metres he'll lay a good platform for the others to work off.

        With regards to the bench, I had some high hopes for Lui, but I'm a little unimpressed with him so far. He's got an error or two in him and I think JSL is a better option from the bench. JSL reminds me a bit of Kite.
      • The Prince of Brookvale

        The Prince of Brookvale Member

        +41 /0
        Is it me or he looks like Cuthbo?
        • Like Like x 1
        • bob dylan

          bob dylan Well-Known Member Premium Member 2017 Tipping Competitor

          +6,440 /192
          I like him, think he is making great progress.

          I thought his effort against The Sharks was his best yet.

          No rubbish in his game.

          For the record @Ryan I dont think you are being harsh, just calling it as you see it.
          • Like Like x 4
          • SeaEagleRock8

            SeaEagleRock8 Sea Eagle Lach Staff Member Premium Member 2017 Tipping Competitor

            +10,554 /215
            Stats can be meaningless and misleading. You can't make a metre if you don't get the ball or you aren't on the field.

            Anyhow, it's pointless to compare his stats to players we can't afford. We could only afford a black and gold no-name generic brand budget priced prop to do a simple job and he's doing OK so far (in fact better than I feared before the season started). He's only played about 12 NRL games so far.

            We have a young impact prop we are currently nurturing, but he's not quite ready yet.
            • Like Like x 3
            • EagleRock40

              EagleRock40 Well-Known Member

              +211 /4
              You cant compare him to Woods or Tolman. Both those players command upwards of $300k a year, compare that with Josh who's probably on less than half of their salaries.
              His few missed tackles and lack of errors makes him a solid player, and you should know by now good teams like Manly & Melbourne over the last decade have had their star players surround by solid toilers. Over the last couple of years, our only player to consistently make over 100m was Chocco.
              In my opinion you are a bit harsh on him, as quite a few people have been on these forums recently.
              • Like Like x 1
              • Ryan

                Ryan Well-Known Member

                +9,387 /402
                I get that, but I don't buy the whole, "we had to acquire cheap replacements, and that's the best we have attained" line, because in my opinion, we have much better options.

                Go back and watch Ligi Sao (1) and Jake Trbojevich (2) in their debut's in first grade for us. I think both showed in that one game they could have more impact than Starling.

                So, too, does James Hasson (3), Brenton Lawrence (4), Jesse Sene-Lefeo (5), Jason King (6) & Dunamis Lui (7).

                That's SEVEN props that I believe make more impact both in starting and off the bench. Like you said though, stats sometimes don't paint the appropriate picture. I base these comments on what I "see" (regarding the 7 better options).

                Ok, he plays for The Eagles, and he is obviously one of Toovey's favorites (as was David Gower), but he's a toiler. This team has been built on a winning culture, with players who exceed expectation and make a difference, regardless of their background.

                If I'm a starting prop from another team, I'm very thankful Josh Starling is my opposition number - it would give me confidence coming in.
                • Like Like x 1
                • silvereagle

                  silvereagle Active Member

                  +86 /9
                  My assessment so far = good honest low mistake rate prop forward. We have always had one of those guys going back to the early 70's. Nothing flashy but does his job with minimal fuss and penalties and as importantly for Starling ...seems to be improving with each game. I would expect to see some better stats from him with more game time and I am sure he has these as kpi’s.

                  I like Kingy this year coming off the bench so I would keep that exactly the same while messrs Lui, Hassan and JSL I think will also get better with more games. As far as sao, turbo etc......judging by our standing in the NSW Cup not sure there are any better options there. Toovey now needs to weave his magic and turn these guys into a feared forward pack.....and our backs will do the rest.
                  • Like Like x 1
                  • jbb/james

                    jbb/james Well-Known Member Premium Member

                    +1,493 /35
                    I think he is at a different stage of progression compared to all the props mentioned. A young prop with 10 games .When i compare his experience/pay packet /availability of others i think he is doing a steady job He is a better starter than a benchy as well

                    he does not look intimidated by other packs. He rolls up his sleeves and gives it a go. He is not blessed with some skills that others have but he is not paid like others either. When you have the best backline in the comp , very highly paid you need to ensure others just do a job, and a job he does

                    Better props mean worse halves.
                  • Daddycool08

                    Daddycool08 Well-Known Member

                    +372 /4
                    I agree that stats are meaningless.

                    That is why 5 out of 4 people have trouble with statistics. :D
                  • COMMANDER


                    +2,412 /121
                    He's just a kid with his first real start. His priority is not making mistakes, which he is doing admirably.

                    Undoubtedly a work in progress and will add great value over time.
                  • susan

                    susan Well-Known Member

                    +2,357 /56
                    ordinary and always will be
                  • The Who

                    The Who Well-Known Member Premium Member

                    +7,250 /173
                    Thoughtful post, Ryan.
                    Yes, Starling is a toiler, a workhorse. Nothing wrong with that.
                    But I would like to see some of the other props - we have so many now - given a starting roll. One is James Hasson. I think he could become really good, despite what some posters think. He is the tallest and most aggressive of the props in our roster.
                    • Like Like x 3
                    • IQofalimabean

                      IQofalimabean Well-Known Member

                      +283 /12
                      Starling has made more meters and less errors than Lawrence. But in saying that I think JSl would probably make more meters starting.
                      • Like Like x 1
                      • Stevo

                        Stevo Well-Known Member

                        +1,401 /56
                        I kind of like how you don't really notice his game. Means he's not spectacular but he's not making mistakes either.
                      • Fluffy

                        Fluffy Well-Known Member

                        +5,625 /204
                        I think he is good value for money and a solid base to build on.

                        We have some young up and comers who, over time may well take his spot but for now I think he is a good prop to start.

                        As someone else posted he is not on the same money as Tolmen and Woods so not really apples with apples.

                        The rule of thumb for a starting prop is 100m and 20 tackles = good return. Starling is pretty much on par.
                      • Garts

                        Garts Well-Known Member

                        +844 /25
                        Cannot compare him with Woods and co. That is like saying a porsche is faster than a corolla. However whilst he is doing a job he has not got me at all excited with what I have seen. I also think we probably have better options in the ranks. I suspect we will see the alternatives get their chance towards the back end of the season.
                      • Masked Eagle

                        Masked Eagle Well-Known Member

                        +976 /0
                        He takes the early game heat and early set hit ups. Both those things are going to effect your stats. I can't recall him getting dominated too many times which is more important than a few extra metres per game. That being said, I did think he was going to be a bit more explosive than what he has been, but I have seen improvement in him so he's still got the spot in my team atm. I think it's obvious the club isn't going to rush Jake T, so I don't think there is much chance he'll get a run anytime soon. .

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