Jamil Hopoate: Jail saved my life
- Thread starter Jethro
- Start date
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Why don't you acknowledge that Manly was his second chance, after he was fired by Parra for continued bad behaviour.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl...cipline-breaches/story-fn2mcuj6-1226534458725
How did he repay the faith? By loutish behaviour resulting in criminal assault in company and jail time 😎
This is the third chance for JH and again he is taking the spot of a young player looking for is very first chance 🙁
Jamil and Sonnie have no outstanding talent, to risk a Club's reputation for
Unfortunately if you dont read my comments through you have no chance of having an effective response. I acknowledged that he had been in trouble for ill discipline and activities relating to his partying that had him in trouble. Again what I am saying is that if he has EARNED an opportunity to be reselected then he should be afforded that opportunity. According to reports he has been outstanding for the Narraweena side which leads the A grade comp. Now that is a lower tier comp I realise, but Manly see something in the kid. The suggestion that he has no outstanding talent is contrary to reports of those who make those choices. Maybe you know better.
And lets be clear. Jamil's criminality and poor behaviour in the past have nothing to do with his potential as a player. He was once considered a better prospect than William, and though that is yet to be shown, his recent performances suggest he is worth the chance. He is still only 21 years old
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Terry it is unfair to judge someone based on his familial background. I have a female ancestor who was a criminal on the First Fleet. Does that suggest I will be a criminal. Crime is related to a whole range of factors, sometimes including family but not only and often not.
Jamil has been on Manly's books for quite some time because he was noted at a very young age. He was imprisoned when only 20 years old and is still only 21, only a little older than Liam Knight. He is either the youngest or one of the youngest playing in our NSW Cup side and was even younger playing in that grade before being gaoled. And yet reports suggest he was one of the best players and impressed when he came back into the NSW Cup side in the last match, something very few team members could declare.
Terry I am not defending Jamil regarding previous behaviour. But I've seen enough people in my life to turn themselves around to suggest its worth the risk. What's the worst that can happen... He fails
Jerry1
First Grader
The worst that can happen... Is he gets on the piss again a kills some poor kid...
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Potentially Jerry that could happen to any of us who likes a drink. How many good citizens kill people on the road whilst intoxicated and driving. Your argument is rather extreme I would say and I would suggest no coach would allow a player on the field in an intoxicated state. And there has never been any suggestion that Jamil has done that in the past. But then we could postulate a huge range of possibilities. But that's only conjecture and fortunately in this society we dont get judged on what could happen.
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
They have criminal checks but that doesnt mean they wont be employed. The checks are supposed to be made only in respect of the problems certain offending will have in respect of the nature of the employment. Certainly child sex offenders would be precluded from employment involving children. Obviously those committing fraud may be denied employment as accountants.
But there is the question of discrimination, where the relationship between the offending and the nature of the employment are not in conflict after a person has served their time. In this respect Jamil has not committed an offence that should preclude him from playing NRL and therefore there is no justification to deny him that opportunity..
Suggest you read the Anti-Discrimination Act as applies to criminal behaviour
www.humanrights.gov.au/human-rights-discrimination-employment-basis-criminal-record-0
HappilyManly
Journey Man
I watched all the NYC up to last year and the next 2 Hopas have never stood out for me.
The fact that Jamil gets selected now is largely due to his father's connections at Manly. Just like Randall replacing a Coach who got the NYC to their first GF 😎
Unfortunately, the apathy in our NSW Cup would have anyone new 'stand out'😕
The worst that can happen, as I have repeatedly stated, is that he denies the opportunity for a player to get his first chance - whilst he is given his nth 😡
I don't oppose Jamil's eternal chances based on his lineage, but on his own past wasting of his previous chances
But, it's the Owners prerogative to spend their monies on who they like.
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
I watched all the NYC up to last year and the next 2 Hopas have never stood out for me.
The fact that Jamil gets selected now is largely due to his father's connections at Manly. Just like Randall replacing a Coach who got the NYC to their first GF 😎
Unfortunately, the apathy in our NSW Cup would have anyone new 'stand out'😕
The worst that can happen, as I have repeatedly stated, is that he denies the opportunity for a player to get his first chance - whilst he is given his nth 😡
I don't oppose Jamil's eternal chances based on his lineage, but on his own past wasting of his previous chances
But, it's the Owners prerogative to spend their monies on who they like.
Happily Manly it seems to me you may have a set against the Hopoates that colours your view regarding them. I will answer each point you have made, as dispassionately as I can.
1. Both the young Hopoate lads have represented the state at age level. The Manly club has nothing to do with those selections. They were selected by independent selectors who are no doubt astute judges of talent.
2. Certainly Manly does have a 'family' style, just like Canterbury had, and that's not necessarily a bad things. It certainly assisted Canterbury in the 80s. But Jamil , as I understand it was considered one of the best players playing for Manly's NSW Cup and NYC teams in the past and was thought to have performing strongly in his first game back. But what got him back was over many months in the fourth tier RL comp playing for Narraweena, he was considered the star on the competition and assisted the team to the top of the comp. He earned his resigning. Manly obviously made him jump through more hoops to get back than they did for say Fonua-Blake who was convicted for abusing and kicking his partner.
3. It may be that 'anyone new' would stand out in our NSW Cup team. But logically isnt that why you would select someone who could do that, or do you prefer lesser players to be brought in.
4. This is Jamil's first chance following a serious incident. His other problems were regarding attitude, which did not entail criminal activity (sleeping in, partying, general ill discipline etc). As far as I know this was only his second instance of being stood down.
5. Jamil is in grade because of his talent, something the Hopoate family have a lot of. Yes maybe he is 'family' to the Manly club, but he wouldnt be so highly thought of if he didnt have the talent and performance worthy of selection. The Penns are not that stupid.
Ron Burgundy
Rookie
Bear fax you seem to know a lot about Jamil?
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Ron, I know as much about Jamil as most others on this site. I've never met him, nor any of the Hopoate family. I know a little more about justice and equity and the need to avoid scapegoating, stereotyping and witch hunting. It seems sometimes regarding certain players and coaches, there's a feeding frenzy that develops.
All I'm maintaining is that its important to get things in perspective. Have fun, give it to the opposition, but also understand we often have little idea what really happens behind the scenes and we often judge unfairly and see things only in black and white terms. In fact everything is in tones of grey.
But I dont think I'm saying anything amazingly profound here. I think most people when they step back and look at things dispassionately, know what I'm saying.
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Bearfax if they ever do a remake of the Rumpole series I am nominating you to play Horace.
You put up a splendid defence
I hope you enjoy red plonk...
Jerry1
First Grader
Stereotyping.....Judge unfairly....
I think you should read what the judge said about him when sentencing. This was not a trivial offence my friend. He could have quite easily killed the bloke. You making light of it is quite frankly a sad sign of the times. Bleeding heart lefty minority with the loud voice, out of touch with silent the majority.
Promising NRL player Jamil Hopoate has been sentenced to at least 12 months jail for assaulting a man outside a northern beaches hotel.
But lawyers for Hopoate almost immediately indicated they would appeal the sentence and have launched an 11th-hour bid for bail, but this application was rejected by the magistrate.
Jamil Hopoate, in a file picture. Photo: Anthony Johnson
In February this year, in an attack described by Downing Centre Local Court Magistrate Jane Mottley as "savage and unprovoked", the 20-year-old Manly Sea Eagles player and a group of friends punched and kicked Alexander Christie outside the Ivanhoe Hotel.
When another man, Timothy Blackett, tried to intervene he was "tossed aside like an unwanted plaything".
Hopoate later pleaded guilty to two counts of assault occasioning actual bodily harm in company over the attack.
Manly rookie Jamil Hopoate has been jailed for at least 12 months for assault. Photo: Nick Moir
In an earlier hearing watched closely by Hopoate's famous father John, the 20-year-old's lawyers argued that he should be spared a full time custodial sentence because of his age and the likely effect on his mental health.
But Magistrate Mottley disagreed, finding that "the only appropriate sentence is one of full-time imprisonment".
"Mr Hopoate and his co-offenders set out to exact revenge on a person or persons," Magistrate Mottley said in a scathing set of remarks on sentence.
"If ever there was a case of someone being in the wrong place at the wrong time it was Mr Christie.
"As someone from the northern beaches area he may well have cheered Mr Hopoate's team from the sidelines.
"But he was punched, kicked and rendered unconscious. There needs to be accountability for this kind of behaviour and recognition for the harm done to the community."
Hopoate was sentenced to a maximum 18 months jail with a minimum 12-month non-parole period.
He was also placed on a two-year good behaviour bond for the second assault on Mr Blackett.
Hopoate was hugged and kissed by his father John before removing his jewellery and tie in preparation to be taken into custody by corrections officers.
Hopoate returned to court less than an hour later with his lawyers indicating they would appeal the decision and asking for his immediate release on bail pending that appeal.
But Magistrate Mottley gave the bail application short shrift, declaring that the appeal had "no reasonable prospects of success".
She also said that there was an unacceptable risk that Hopoate would fail to appear at court if released as well as an unacceptable risk that he would commit a further offence.
The application was refused and Hopoate was taken back into custody.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/nrl-playe...en-assault-20141210-1247yt.html#ixzz4DtplFdI4
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Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
A very cogent response there Jerry1 but for one thing. Justice was served when Hopoate was sentenced to 12 months with an npp of 6 months. And no one is disputing that he deserved it. But what you are proposing is to judge him twice, to not only serve his prison term but to then suffer further penalty. That is not how our justice system works Jerry. In law once a person has served his time, the penalty has been met. What you're proposing is that anyone who commits an offence loses his fundamental rights in a society indefinitely
What I am suggesting here is that despite Jamil's nasty crime, he still has rights himself after he has served his time, the same rights as you and I have. Justice in Australia is aimed at working for all equally. We commit a crime, and we face the penalty imposed, but we dont then make the offender a leper. Such an action would make any person who commits an offence a second class citizen, virtually a class based societal structure. Perhaps we should do as some societies do and also make the children of such lepers, also second class citizens for having the wrong parents.
Hard as it is to accept, in this society justice is aimed at being applied equally. Jamil has a right to justice also, just as the victim had a right to justice. Justice was applied to Jamil with his prison term. That has now been met. Now Jamil has the right to justice in not being discriminated against in employment, as long as the nature of his crime does not bring others at serious risk. That's how the legal system works in this country and personally I think its the best system around.
What I am suggesting here is that despite Jamil's nasty crime, he still has rights himself after he has served his time, the same rights as you and I have. Justice in Australia is aimed at working for all equally. We commit a crime, and we face the penalty imposed, but we dont then make the offender a leper. Such an action would make any person who commits an offence a second class citizen, virtually a class based societal structure. Perhaps we should do as some societies do and also make the children of such lepers, also second class citizens for having the wrong parents.
Hard as it is to accept, in this society justice is aimed at being applied equally. Jamil has a right to justice also, just as the victim had a right to justice. Justice was applied to Jamil with his prison term. That has now been met. Now Jamil has the right to justice in not being discriminated against in employment, as long as the nature of his crime does not bring others at serious risk. That's how the legal system works in this country and personally I think its the best system around.
HappilyManly
Journey Man
Kick an unconscious man, then attack the person trying to save his life
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/wor...awl-video-6294965.html?autoPlay=4183308545001
Shoe1
Journey Man
Beaver moves in different circles. Clean skin family man.
Jerry1
First Grader
Jamil had a right to equality before committing a serious violent crime. He has fore-fitted it now. I revert to my earlier point. He would not be considered for employment in any Govt department or service due to his criminal conviction for a violent crime. In fact he would have been immediately dismissed from the forces for it. This would not be reconsidered once he came out of prison.
We have to accept that manly have given him another contract but we don't have to like it. NIMBY as far as I'm concerned. My kids are 19 & 20 & on occasion go to the Ivanhoe for a night out. Do you have kids? You seem to avoid any questions asked like the one I posed about the truck driver. Typical politician arguments. Avoid the issue buy hiding behind prepared rhetoric & diversion.
I'll ask you again. Do you have kids. Would you be happy dropping them off at the corso knowing Jamil & his buddies were on a night out.
Would you employ a truck driver to drive one of your trucks who ran someone over last year when he was DUI.
Bearfax
Grizzly old fart
Might surprise you Jerry but Manly doesnt play its matches on the Corso. Nor do kids play in the NSW Cup and NRL. Whether he plays or not has no bearing on what happens on the Corso. And there is no suggestion that Jamil has ever attacked children, nor is it likely that he would.
But no I dont have children, but just to let you know I'm not talking nonsense, I ran an emergency half way house for street kids for almost 2 years when I was 22. And before I retired I was a parole officer for over three decades. So I think I know a little about criminality and the likelihood of changed behaviour.
Thing is Jerry no one can predict if someone is going to commit a crime other than looking at the factors in the life that could lead in that direction. Jamil might well reoffend. I dont know. You might offend. But offending such as displayed by Jamil is often related to associations and attitudes at that time. He is more likely not to offend if he is occupied and doing something he likes, than if he is not. But he might. So might anyone. But giving someone the chance to prove themselves is far better than denying opportunities if they have shown they are trying. He was punished severely which was good. He needed a taste of where his behaviour was leading him.
Different to Carney who was treated by the League with kid gloves. I said then he was likely to reoffend and he did. Important to pay the penalty and learn the lesson rather than feel sorry for them. And I'm not feeling sorry for him. I think he deserved his gaol time. But if he tries to reform, we should give him that opportunity. If he fails, hit him hard again.
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yokahontas
Bencher
Not strictly true that he wouldn't be employed by any government department - it would count him out of ADF service for now, sure (if he doesn't reoffend and it becomes a spent conviction, he might get through if he applied down the track), and stuff like policing is now not an option for him. But plenty of departments that either don't care, or don't do a police check. Or certain jobs within departments where the checking is not necessarily as stringent.
Which I think is fair, FWIW. Even the ADF has rules about not punishing someone twice for the same offence - hence civil offences are handed over to the police/courts and not dealt with under the DFDA. If you've done your time and the crime was not directly related to your employment (i.e. Sex offenders are rightly excluded from child-related employment), there shouldn't be an exclusion - do we want people to rehabilitate themselves or not?!
The DUI example is more like the sex offender one - if you lose your licence, you definitely lose your driving job. That's an example of the offence having a connection with your employment.
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