I was wrong

[SeaEagleRock8]

So nothing to do with Charlie Kirk then.
You’d be well advised to stick to the topic, lest you be accused of deflection.

Wrong

This thread was created by SER8 to specifically discuss Charlie Kirk

Wrong

This thread WAS NOT created to specifically discuss Kirk. It was simply named to honour him, as I stated clearly in the 1st sentence of the new thread - as follows:

For those interested, such as @Brookie1973 hopefully, here is a new thread named to honour the recently murdered/assassinated Charlie Kirk

The thread WAS CREATED for any who wanted to have respectful serious discussions. Which if you had bothered to read the 1st post in this thread you would know. Because I explained it in fairly simple terms, or so I thought - as follows:

As footy fans do we even need to have respectful serious discussions? No. Of course not. But for anyone that does... here's a thread we could try?

As it happens I knew nothing about Kirk, and the more I learn about his politics the less inclined I am to honour him. Nevertheless he did try to get people engaged in political discussion, which I think is a worthwhile endeavour, so there you go.

as for Brookie, you're clearly not interested in respectful serious discussion, only in ****-stirring, so why not just stay in the Trump thread. Or better still, just comment on the footy?

 

[47MVEagle]

No one believes there is not extremism on both sides. At issue is the lack of attention given to left wing extremism, particularly Antifa, who are usually portrayed as a group of current day freedom fighters against the evil facists/racists. The proposed designation of Antifa as a domestic terrorist group will go some way to addressing the imbalance.

Not sure about people leveraging the Kirk murder for political advantage, but if so, some may think the same accusation could also be made with George Floyd, who’s death was used by Democrats to pursue a political agenda built around “defund the police”. I recall large scale rioting after the George Floyd murder, but am not aware of any rioting post the Charlie Kirk assassination. Not sure how these facts reconcile with the statistics you have.

Whatabout , whatabout, whatabout etc.

 

[Brookie1973]

Wrong

Wrong

This thread WAS NOT created to specifically discuss Kirk. It was simply named to honour him, as I stated clearly in the 1st sentence of the new thread - as follows:



The thread WAS CREATED for any who wanted to have respectful serious discussions. Which if you had bothered to read the 1st post in this thread you would know. Because I explained it in fairly simple terms, or so I thought - as follows:



As it happens I knew nothing about Kirk, and the more I learn about his politics the less inclined I am to honour him. Nevertheless he did try to get people engaged in political discussion, which I think is a worthwhile endeavour, so there you go.

as for Brookie, you're clearly not interested in respectful serious discussion, only in ****-stirring, so why not just stay in the Trump thread. Or better still, just comment on the footy?

Please. If being almost the lone voice against a constant stream of “Trump bad” posts makes me a **** stirrer, whatever you say. I’d say it is at least providing a degree of balance to the one-sided Trump hate-fest that this thread would otherwise have become.

I would be more inclined to believe you were seriously interested in respectful political discussion if the majority of your posts in this thread weren’t either of the “Trump bad” variety or having a go at me for my writing style (too sarcastic) or posting approach (no videos allowed).

 

[Brookie1973]

Whatabout , whatabout, whatabout etc.

Keep up mate - whatabouts are now allowed in this thread.

 

[47MVEagle]

On the subject of Kirk's assassination - something worth noting is that while most people agree that violence is never the answer, most dictatorships that have been overthrown throughout history have started with an act of violence, such as an assassination.

The 2nd amendment (that the right cling to as their "God given right to bear arms") was originally intended as a means for the people to have the ability to overthrow a tyrannical government, yet now anyone anti-Trump is accused of being "left" & anything short of sitting in a circle singing "kum-bye-yah" in demonstrations against him & any of his policies is deemed "political violence" by the right.

I believe what we're witnessing in the US is the beginning of a revolution, as people grow angrier with suffering under Trump's policies, that really only seem to benefit the likes of Trump & other multi-millionaires.

I can't believe that anyone can think Trump is doing any good, when he's deputising untrained civilians to be ICE agents & giving them carte blanche to round up & incarcerate anyone they think (in their unskilled opinions) fits the profile of "illegal immigrants".

Look at the recent circus where they arrested all those South Korean workers in the factory in the US.

Absolute madness.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

This is absolutely as bad. To casually promote the murder of thousands of homeless and mentally ill people on national television is so evil and psychotic. The fact that this guy hasn't been sacked yet is a perfect example of everything that is wrong in the world today.

Yep.

Kilmeade and Fox floating a final solution to the housing crisis, testing the waters (There were 2 others on the panel with him and neither seemed to take issue, and as you say Fox doesn't seem inclined to sack him for his opinion. In fact within hours of saying this Kilmeade was sharing a couch with Trump on another fox show..)

And of course, as most people probably already know, homeless people are frequently killed already.
Who are homeless people? many are people with mental health conditions and/or substance addiction, long term unemployed . The links between mental health conditions and substance misuse - self-medicating - are well documented.
As has the fact that many homeless people are veterans! No shock given the trauma many of them have endured. I guess Kilmeade never heard of Rambo

There has been a housing shortage forever in the US, as there has in Australia. It gets worse at times but has always been there.

Many people with mental health conditions resist treatment because they don't believe they have a mental health condition. (maybe because they have a mental health condition!?)

And regardless of what circumstances brought them to homelessness, once there, they are pretty much by definition on the bottom rung of society.

And as I mentioned, unlike friends of the President, homeless people are routinely killed already.

HOMELESS – Cause of death
Trauma and violence: Multnomah County found 11% of deaths were due to homicide and 10% due to suicide. Los Angeles County found 24% of deaths were due to trauma or violence. [General pop = 0.8% homicide and 1.5% suicide]

Who else is getting killed disproportionately? Quite a few groups, it's not hard to guess who they are
for example...

Murders of trans people nearly doubled over past 4 years, and Black trans women are most at risk, report finds

(i can cite the studies if desired)

 

[lsz]

No one believes there is not extremism on both sides. At issue is the lack of attention given to left wing extremism, particularly Antifa, who are usually portrayed as a group of current day freedom fighters against the evil facists/racists. The proposed designation of Antifa as a domestic terrorist group will go some way to addressing the imbalance.

Not sure about people leveraging the Kirk murder for political advantage, but if so, some may think the same accusation could also be made with George Floyd, who’s death was used by Democrats to pursue a political agenda built around “defund the police”. I recall large scale rioting after the George Floyd murder, but am not aware of any rioting post the Charlie Kirk assassination. Not sure how these facts reconcile with the statistics you have.

So no comment on the vice president of the United States then? Just a straight pivot to Antifa?
I am going to dip out of this now as it is clear nothing has changed

 

[Cliffycomeback]

Yep.

Kilmeade and Fox floating a final solution to the housing crisis, testing the waters (There were 2 others on the panel with him and neither seemed to take issue, and as you say Fox doesn't seem inclined to sack him for his opinion. In fact within hours of saying this Kilmeade was sharing a couch with Trump on another fox show..)

And of course, as most people probably already know, homeless people are frequently killed already.
Who are homeless people? many are people with mental health conditions and/or substance addiction, long term unemployed . The links between mental health conditions and substance misuse - self-medicating - are well documented.
As has the fact that many homeless people are veterans! No shock given the trauma many of them have endured. I guess Kilmeade never heard of Rambo

There has been a housing shortage forever in the US, as there has in Australia. It gets worse at times but has always been there.

Many people with mental health conditions resist treatment because they don't believe they have a mental health condition. Because they have a mental health condition!

And regardless of what circumstances brought them to homelessness, once there, they are pretty much by definition on the bottom rung of society.

And as I mentioned, unlike friends of the President, homeless people are routinely killed already.

HOMELESS – Cause of death
Trauma and violence: Multnomah County found 11% of deaths were due to homicide and 10% due to suicide. Los Angeles County found 24% of deaths were due to trauma or violence. [General pop = 0.8% homicide and 1.5% suicide]

Who else is getting killed disproportionately? Quite a few groups, it's not hard to guess who they are
for example...

Murders of trans people nearly doubled over past 4 years, and Black trans women are most at risk, report finds

(i can cite the studies if desired)

This is truly heartbreaking. Murder of anyone irrespective of race, religion, politics, sexuality, health, mental or otherwise is abhorrent. I am honestly shocked that no one has called this out in the mainstream media. The world is spiralling out of control and time is running out.

 

[Brookie1973]

So no comment on the vice president of the United States then? Just a straight pivot to Antifa?
I am going to dip out of this now as it is clear nothing has changed

My post was a direct reply to what you posted. You brought up using murders/assassinations for political purposes, you brought up left vs right wing extremism, you brought up Antifa. It’s a bit rich being accused of a “pivot” when I appear to be the only one here trying to keep this thread on track.

I am going to dip out now also, as it is once again clear that all certain people are looking for is another leftist echo chamber where everyone agrees with their morally superior world-wide.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Well I have belatedly looked up Charlie's political beliefs and it turns out he was ... a pro-Trump, pro-gun, anti-Islam, anti-abortion and anti-transgender Christian nationalist who also endorsed a range of conspiracy theories from the "Great Replacement", to America's '"stolen" 2020 election.

Also turns out his debate style was generally not inclusive, rather it was combative, rhetorical and aimed at pushing his own lines and glossing over counter arguments others tried to put, rather that trying for a genuine meeting of minds.

So basically just a charismatic young conservative Christian nationalist influencer.

Kirk did poorly on US fact-checker PolitiFact's scorecard, with 90 per cent of checks rating his claims "mostly false", "false", or "pants on fire".

Stacey Patton: “Kirk spent years demonizing LGBTQ people, mocking gun survivors, spewing racism about Black folks, and pushing policies that literally shorten lives.”

So while I don't condone his murder I now don't see how his death deserves more 'honouring' than many 1000s of other people who are killed around the world each day.

Therefore I am changing the original post to reflect this.

For those such as @Brookie1973, and I know there's a few others who also feel similar, you can make a thread to honour Charlie.

 

[Uber Eagle 72]

I think it is great that we can express our views in threads like this. I am however surprised that some feel or seem to come across that this site is a means of having a debate with the view of somehow out pointing or better still convincing someone that their view is wrong especially when trying to do this via shame. This is a pointless and foolish endeavour! I have made the mistake of trying to do this in the past. Unless you can have a fairdinkum face to face conversation debating here will only lead to disappointment and frustration.

 

[lsz]

My post was a direct reply to what you posted. You brought up using murders/assassinations for political purposes, you brought up left vs right wing extremism, you brought up Antifa. It’s a bit rich being accused of a “pivot” when I appear to be the only one here trying to keep this thread on track.

I am going to dip out now also, as it is once again clear that all certain people are looking for is another leftist echo chamber where everyone agrees with their morally superior world-wide.

The post was about the Vice President of the United States blatantly lying.

But of course the last line when I threw in Antifa is the the part we should all focus on.

I am still torn if it is comical or worrying your single minded view

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I am still torn if it is comical or worrying your single minded view

He made some comment a while back in the trump thread, forget exactly how it was worded (and it's possible I misunderstood) but I took it as 'none of this affects us, it's just an amusing diversion' (or similar)
Which would account for a lot. It's not about trying to understand significant changes in the world that will affect our children and their children, merely all a bit of a game.

 

[Brookie1973]

The post was about the Vice President of the United States blatantly lying.

But of course the last line when I threw in Antifa is the the part we should all focus on.

I am still torn if it is comical or worrying your single minded view

I thought your post was about the things you included in your comments, which I responded to, and as you well know, my response covered more than just Antifa. For the record, I find most of the Democrat agenda on the crazy side, so if that is what Vance was saying, I concur.

 

[Cliffycomeback]

In my opinion Charlie Kirk is a good man. He has undoubtedly influenced millions of youth around the world. He was a patriotic, God fearing, family first, pro lifer who died for having a different opinion. I am still in love with the way the world use to be, and last century, those things were considered to be attributes.I find it funny that many of Charlie's harshest critics celebrated George Floyd's life. A convicted felon and woman abuser with a long history of violence.

I think what happened to George Floyd was very wrong. I also think what happened to Charlie Kirk was wrong. Apart from them both dying the two tragic events are really like comparing chalk and cheese. But anyone who doesn't feel disgust about a man having his neck blown out in front of his family, or the same when a grown man cries for his Mother as he struggles to breathe. That person is lost, they have a stone heart and anything they say regarding justice isn't worth a second thought.

 

[Cliffycomeback]

Well I have belatedly looked up Charlie's political beliefs and it turns out he was ... a pro-Trump, pro-gun, anti-Islam, anti-abortion and anti-transgender Christian nationalist who also endorsed a range of conspiracy theories from the "Great Replacement", to America's '"stolen" 2020 election.

Also turns out his debate style was generally not inclusive, rather it was combative, rhetorical and aimed at pushing his own lines and glossing over counter arguments others tried to put, rather that trying for a genuine meeting of minds.

So basically just a charismatic young conservative Christian nationalist influencer.

Kirk did poorly on US fact-checker PolitiFact's scorecard, with 90 per cent of checks rating his claims "mostly false", "false", or "pants on fire".

Stacey Patton: “Kirk spent years demonizing LGBTQ people, mocking gun survivors, spewing racism about Black folks, and pushing policies that literally shorten lives.”

So while I don't condone his murder I now don't see how his death deserves more 'honouring' than many 1000s of other people who are killed around the world each day.

Therefore I am changing the original post to reflect this.

For those such as @Brookie1973, and I know there's a few others who also feel similar, you can make a thread to honour Charlie.

Just when I think there is hope to find common ground you come up with a tasteless and vile post.

 

[Brookie1973]

He made some comment a while back in the trump thread, forget exactly how it was worded (and it's possible I misunderstood) but I took it as 'none of this affects us, it's just an amusing diversion' (or similar)
Which would account for a lot. It's not about trying to understand significant changes in the world that will affect our children and their children, merely all a bit of a game.

The comment I made was in response to another poster who I believed was taking the whole political debate far too seriously, which I do not think is healthy for anyone. Clearly you have misunderstood that context, and have used that as another attempt to claim the high moral ground which you so dearly covet.

Anyway, I only clicked on this thread as the title change fooled me into thinking it was something else. So I will buy out once again, and leave you to your echo chamber, safe in the knowledge everyone will agree with you. Kind of ironic given what this thread was meant to be about.

 

[Cliffycomeback]

Well I have belatedly looked up Charlie's political beliefs and it turns out he was ... a pro-Trump, pro-gun, anti-Islam, anti-abortion and anti-transgender Christian nationalist who also endorsed a range of conspiracy theories from the "Great Replacement", to America's '"stolen" 2020 election.

Also turns out his debate style was generally not inclusive, rather it was combative, rhetorical and aimed at pushing his own lines and glossing over counter arguments others tried to put, rather that trying for a genuine meeting of minds.

So basically just a charismatic young conservative Christian nationalist influencer.

Kirk did poorly on US fact-checker PolitiFact's scorecard, with 90 per cent of checks rating his claims "mostly false", "false", or "pants on fire".

Stacey Patton: “Kirk spent years demonizing LGBTQ people, mocking gun survivors, spewing racism about Black folks, and pushing policies that literally shorten lives.”

So while I don't condone his murder I now don't see how his death deserves more 'honouring' than many 1000s of other people who are killed around the world each day.

Therefore I am changing the original post to reflect this.

For those such as @Brookie1973, and I know there's a few others who also feel similar, you can make a thread to honour Charlie.

ARe you pro Islam? Please explain what parts of Islamic theology you are enamoured by. Also, please post what Kirk said/did that insulted Islam and why you disagree with what he said. I really look forward to your response on this. In fact, if you somehow manage to pull off a reverse somersault flip. You'll make a believer out of me. Also, is there an Islamic nation you would like to raise a family in?

Best of luck!

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

I'm not religious, but support anyone's right to believe and worship however they want.
But I don't support discrimination, or fermenting hate, based on what people think their god wants.
Common examples where religious people (not all) try to control others are sexuality and women's rights. My first wife was treated horrendously by the catholic church when she was young, it's affected her entire life, and by extension also my own. Not in a positive way. Hopefully it's obvious from what I just wrote that I also oppose religious extremism and zealotry.
As for details of Charlie Kirk's actions and beliefs, everyone can look things up and do their own research.
It's terrible that he was shot down, awful for anyone to be assaulted or harmed let alone murdered.
As I said in the first post, I was under the impression he was a young guy who was passionate about encouraging respectful political debate. On digging only a little a different picture emerged.
Doesn't mean I'm not appalled by his murder. As I'm daily appalled by innocent children dying slowly in terror trapped under the rubble of bombed buildings, or even worse, from starvation, whether in Middle east, africa, america, Australia whatever. Plenty of trouble spots in the world
Anyway Charlie Kirk is now being held up as a martyr or even a saint. An awful loss for his wife and young kids, at least they've got money and the support of some of the most powerful people on earth. So I'm pretty sure my opinion won't make much difference either way

 

[lsz]

I thought your post was about the things you included in your comments, which I responded to, and as you well know, my response covered more than just Antifa. For the record, I find most of the Democrat agenda on the crazy side, so if that is what Vance was saying, I concur.

See how you have created your own narrative?

That is not what he said (but again I should learn my lesson that this is pointless) but believe what suits you