GOULD: SAVIOUR OR SACKER

[fLIP]

The only thing wrong with the current system is the NRL turns a blind eye to those cheating it unless it's one of the 'voodoo doll clubs' that everyone enjoys sticking pins into.

 

[Bearfax]

It seems hardly realistic or pertinent to compare crowd numbers or comparisons between A F L and the N R L . The A F L are by far the dominant sporting code in Melbourne , Perth and Adelaide and also with their presence in N S W and Q L D and with this present situation existing , the A F L will always have an advantage with crowd attendances over the N R L . Also i just have not noticed any serious consideration or appetite for any form of a player draft from any section of the game since the Terry Hill ruling over twenty tears ago now and also taking into account the general culture of the N R L in past or present times in regard to this matter . So while every system should occasionally be reviewed and analysed , the salary cap provisions , some proper and fair functioning of the T P A arrangements , and just some reasonable efficient and professional operation of the present N R L clubs still seems to be the best and most practical way to go . Also i know that it may be some time off , but a second N R L team in Brisbane will definitely restore some balance and fairness to the whole club integrity matter or issue as well .

On the contrary Manly al. The Draft comes up regularly and you'll have noticed on these forums there are not insignificant numbers supporting the concept.

AFL do dominate in Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth. But that's because they were so proactive. Australian Rules though was a very minor sport before 1982 in NSW and before 1987 in Queensland. I know because I used to follow my two metre plus brother about when he played Australian Rules in the then Sydney competition, and crowds used to number much less than a hundred. Perth could have been a Rugby League strong hold (they have two thriving comps in the state). West Coast Eagles, Australian Rules first national in WA averaged obout 20,000 in its first year 1987 and was down to 15000 by 1989 with a better ground that Western Reds had. Western Reds started in 1992 and averaged over 13,000, with one home game attracting 25,000. It also slowed in subsequent years but collapsed under SuperLeague. But its a fallacy that West Australia is an Aussie Rules state. It is dominated by the game now because its the only game in town, but Rugby League competed quite handsomely thank you back in the 90's.

Australian Rules succeeded in NSW, Queensland and Western Australia partly because of good management, but also because of the draft. The draft ensured teams in those states quickly rose in quality, though they had to learn from the Sydney Swans experience when that team dipped in the late 80s. But they stuck at it unlike with some interstate league sides. Now West Coast eagles has won 3 premierships in 30 years, Brisbane Lions (after replacing the Bears) have won 3 premierships in 20 years and Swans two premierships in 34 years. Other than Brisbane and Canberra, both League towns, no new club has risen so fast since the Dogs in the 30s. The point being the AFL gave these clubs through the draft, a boost that ensured they would become successful. They are trying hard for Gold Coast and West Sydney as has been seen of late.

The difference is not that AFL is a better game than league. Its because its managed really well, and part of that is its draft which ensures a degree of equity among its teams. That's why they get big crowds. Teams are more competitive

 

[HoldenV8]

Has anyone noticed the one common denominator with those sports leagues (AFL, NFL, NBA etc) who have a successful draft system?

Not one of the clubs in those leagues has a junior system. That means that they aren't losing players they've brought though from juniors and spent countless time and money on. All of the players they get come from elsewhere.

Look at the AFL for example. Not one of the 16 AFL clubs has its own juniors they can bring through the grades. All the talented juniors coming through do so through the various state leagues and the clubs in those leagues. They get plundered year after year by the AFL draft and its little wonder the state leagues often struggle (but that's another story for another time).

Clubs producing talented juniors like most NRL clubs do wouldn't be too enthused to lose those players in a draft system.

 

[manly al]

I certainly would not dispute some of your points as you are more well versed and researched then i am on some of these matters , Bearfax . I just make the point again that in respect to crowd comparisons , there is much more competition with other sporting codes in N S W and Q L D then in the traditional A F L states , and for example, i clearly recall that in Manly "s case and in particular how Ken Autherson [ Arko ] in particular , often used to comment how it was quite difficult to establish the sea eagles into a competitive and successful club in the early stages of his time as an administrator and competing with the likes of Rugby Union and so on . And this would have no doubt have applied with some other rugby League areas as well. And again the A FL and especially in their traditional A F L areas would not experience or have experienced this situation. Also no doubt a draft system is collectively accepted into their[ A F L ] current club 's operations, and assists with some equity and for some semblance of an even competition, [ however there are still often blow out scores ] but i would say that salary cap concessions have played their part also in the A F L 's system . Anyway again i would say that the N R L just has a different culture and attitude in regard to such matters as draft systems at present and i just can not see this altering in the immediate future .

 

[HoldenV8]

And just on Phil Gould.....

One day he can come out and say something that he genuinely believes is best for the game and the NRL. The next he has a bit of Wayne Bennett about him and you have to read between the lines because quite often what he says will seemingly come across as good for the game, but in reality it only helps a certain few, primarily the club they are with.

In this case, Penrith aren't exactly poor, especially compared to a number of Sydney clubs. Gus knows that and what he's proposing would go a long way to making Penrith (and his mates at Bondi) one of the more powerful clubs and would definitely put them at an advantage over most others in Sydney.

 

[Woodsie]

Trouble is Woodsie you are looking at the exceptions and also you arent comparing the game to justify the claim it was doing well. Crowds in League have been increasing year by year except for about 5 years after the Superleague war but there is a little false economy here with the Brisbane side which attracts at home double what the next best crowd gets since 1988 and Newcastle since 1987, which until recently secured the second highest crowds. Actually there has been little difference per capita attending matches since 1962, despite those two juggernauts The other issue to look at is the fact Australian Rules attracted in 2016, 6.3 million people to games. NRL attracted 3.2 million. This despite they only have 2 more teams. Of their 18 teams 14 average 30,000 plus per game and two others over 25000. In League only one team exceeds 30,000 and all others are under 20,000, five under 15,000 averages.

There are various factors here but one of the primary issues is that AFL teams know their team has a shot at the title every decade at some stage. That doesnt apply as well in league. Certainly the Salary Cap started to ensure all teams had a better show, but the TPAs and what Gould is suggesting will likely take us back to the days when only a couple of clubs win consistently. As long as we have that inequitable system, we wont begin to complete with AFL

Souffs hadn't won in 47 years, and Parra haven't in over 30 years and Cronulla hadn't won for 50 years. didn't seem to diminish their support or fan base.

When you have tribalism people stick solid. A washed out equitable, fair and artificially manufactured comp will just sap the passion out of the game.

You have seen the result of the NRL "managing" the ref's and in turn having them "manage" the game. Wait til they start to "manage" playing rosters.

Nothing could possibly go wrong .. could it?

 

[Chip and Chase]

The day a draft system is introduced is the day the music will die. It will be the end of everything that made Rugby League and Manly great.

Why not just get the 16 teams under the same owner and CEO and then just have turns at winning. Fockit, let's have celebrity quests just pick the fuccken winner out of a bloody hat.

Unlike the other sports that have successful draft systems, RL produces very few players, what .. maybe 10 - 20 1st grade standard players each year.

How happy will you be when you see Jake drafted by Souffs and Tom drafted by Roosters ... but that's cool ... it's a fairer system, tribalism is so 70's.

Fukket your draft ..... focken your fair ..... tribalism rules, and power to the survival of the fittest.

You are working on the theory that every junior from every club wants to stay loyal and be a one club player and will stay for "unders".......there aren't manner Beavers around these days and I don't see much of the current crop investing in this tribalism. Anyway how many of these juniors are true club juniors anyway ? there is as much horse trading going on at that level as there is in the NRL. Back in the good old days your starting 13 would have been 75% club juniors with 2 or 3 imported guns to round it out. Now most teams would be lucky to have 2 or 3 juniors. Look at our decade of dominance squad through the 2000's, how many local juniors in that team ?? Kingy and Choc is all I can think of.

As for there only being 10-20 1st grade standard players produced each year, I'm not sure where that stat comes from ? define 1st grade standard ?? if you get picked for 1st grade then you are by definition "first grade standard". If you mean you want to have a club based competition played at Origin standard then the only way you achieve that is reduce the amount of teams to concentrate the player talent level. Who misses out, which tribes get cut ?

Do you think we would live to tell the tale in a game of survival of the fittest ? we aren't very financially fit unfortunately. There needs to be some sort of levelling mechanism, whether it's a draft or a salary cap, they are both designed to spread player talent. I think we as a club need that, otherwise we don't compete IMO.

 

[Woodsie]

You are working on the theory that every junior from every club wants to stay loyal and be a one club player and will stay for "unders".......there aren't manner Beavers around these days and I don't see much of the current crop investing in this tribalism. Anyway how many of these juniors are true club juniors anyway ? there is as much horse trading going on at that level as there is in the NRL. Back in the good old days your starting 13 would have been 75% club juniors with 2 or 3 imported guns to round it out. Now most teams would be lucky to have 2 or 3 juniors. Look at our decade of dominance squad through the 2000's, how many local juniors in that team ?? Kingy and Choc is all I can think of.

As for there only being 10-20 1st grade standard players produced each year, I'm not sure where that stat comes from ? define 1st grade standard ?? if you get picked for 1st grade then you are by definition "first grade standard". If you mean you want to have a club based competition played at Origin standard then the only way you achieve that is reduce the amount of teams to concentrate the player talent level. Who misses out, which tribes get cut ?

Do you think we would live to tell the tale in a game of survival of the fittest ? we aren't very financially fit unfortunately. There needs to be some sort of levelling mechanism, whether it's a draft or a salary cap, they are both designed to spread player talent. I think we as a club need that, otherwise we don't compete IMO.

Thanks for the post telling me what my theory is and what I mean.

I will settle for what I actually said, I think it was succinct enough.

We have a level playing field with regard to the amount of money each club can spend on players. Problem solved.

The only area of inequity that now exists (apart of NRL sanctioned draws etc) is the TPA's. Sort them out .. and there are no problems with regards to "rich" clubs.

With regard to a survival of the fittest ... if we can't survive, we deserve to disappear. The NRL pays by way of grant 100% of the salary cap and this has now been extended to 13 mil to cover a sizable chunk of running costs. If the difference can't be meet by gate receipts, merchandise sales and owners kicking in ... then so be it. Sack some of the 22 office staff and buy less cow's blood. Piss off the 10 wiz kids with the GPS training trackers, drop off the 5 dietricians (didn't seem to help Georgie) and stop taking 40 players and assorted hanger ons on flights to interstate games.

And FFS, get somebody to knows how to foikin heat up a PIE!

 

[Chip and Chase]

Thanks for the post telling me what my theory is and what I mean.

I will settle for what I actually said, I think it was succinct enough.

We have a level playing field with regard to the amount of money each club can spend on players. Problem solved.

The only area of inequity that now exists (apart of NRL sanctioned draws etc) is the TPA's. Sort them out .. and there are no problems with regards to "rich" clubs.

With regard to a survival of the fittest ... if we can't survive, we deserve to disappear. The NRL pays by way of grant 100% of the salary cap and this has now been extended to 13 mil to cover a sizable chunk of running costs. If the difference can't be meet by gate receipts, merchandise sales and owners kicking in ... then so be it. Sack some of the 22 office staff and buy less cow's blood. Piss off the 10 wiz kids with the GPS training trackers, drop off the 5 dietricians (didn't seem to help Georgie) and stop taking 40 players and assorted hanger ons on flights to interstate games.

And FFS, get somebody to knows how to foikin heat up a PIE!

I apologise if my post was misinterpreted, I was trying to get clarification on your juniors theory, because the way I see it there isn't strong junior pathways in teams anymore, so I don't know why that should be an impediment to considering a draft.

Agree with you on the pies.

 

[Woodsie]

I apologise if my post was misinterpreted, I was trying to get clarification on your juniors theory, because the way I see it there isn't strong junior pathways in teams anymore, so I don't know why that should be an impediment to considering a draft.

Agree with you on the pies.

My point on juniors was twofold (1) the number of talented juniors coming through each year is so low that I doubt there would be enough for there to be more than 1 draft pick per club. and (2) whilst you are correct you can not guarantee a juniors desire to play for your club, you only have to lose that one genuine player each decade to destroy that special bond a RL supporter has with his club. Toovey, Menzies, Turbo's, Choc, Kingy, If they choose to leave like the Hoppa's and Lussick's well fuukken them ... but forced to leave .... I am still butthurt over Gutho, but I understand it, I just hope one day he gets a good haircut and comes back to Manly where he belongs.

 

[robbiea]

Why wouldn't there stiil be the "Tribalism" nature of fans if they implemented a draft system into the NRL.?
If anything it would add more fan interest ,especially in the off season when the lead up to the Draft would presumably happen.
I for one ,love the added Draft enthusiasm,it brings a new dimension to our dying game .Clearly something needs to change .Hopefully that change can start with Greenturd's head & then the draft .

 

[Chip and Chase]

You could tailor a draft system so that clubs get a priority pick of one of their own juniors each season for example . I also like the AFL's father/son system which keeps that family link alive. The flipside to a well thought out draft system is that it could work to encourage junior development, not destroy it. If there are incentives there then clubs will use them. I think a draft is worth considering as it works quite well in a lot of other competitions around the world.

 

[Hamster Huey]

The day a draft system is introduced is the day the music will die. It will be the end of everything that made Rugby League and Manly great.

Why not just get the 16 teams under the same owner and CEO and then just have turns at winning. Fockit, let's have celebrity quests just pick the fuccken winner out of a bloody hat.

Unlike the other sports that have successful draft systems, RL produces very few players, what .. maybe 10 - 20 1st grade standard players each year.

How happy will you be when you see Jake drafted by Souffs and Tom drafted by Roosters ... but that's cool ... it's a fairer system, tribalism is so 70's.

Fukket your draft ..... focken your fair ..... tribalism rules, and power to the survival of the fittest.

If Manly and the Turbos wanted to stay together, a draft doesn't stop that. They can remain in our colours for as long as both want to and it will only be at the completion of a contract in which either doesn't take up the next offer, that a draft option is presented.

 

[Hamster Huey]

On the contrary Manly al. The Draft comes up regularly and you'll have noticed on these forums there are not insignificant numbers supporting the concept.

AFL do dominate in Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth. But that's because they were so proactive. Australian Rules though was a very minor sport before 1982 in NSW and before 1987 in Queensland. I know because I used to follow my two metre plus brother about when he played Australian Rules in the then Sydney competition, and crowds used to number much less than a hundred. Perth could have been a Rugby League strong hold (they have two thriving comps in the state). West Coast Eagles, Australian Rules first national in WA averaged obout 20,000 in its first year 1987 and was down to 15000 by 1989 with a better ground that Western Reds had. Western Reds started in 1992 and averaged over 13,000, with one home game attracting 25,000. It also slowed in subsequent years but collapsed under SuperLeague. But its a fallacy that West Australia is an Aussie Rules state. It is dominated by the game now because its the only game in town, but Rugby League competed quite handsomely thank you back in the 90's.

Australian Rules succeeded in NSW, Queensland and Western Australia partly because of good management, but also because of the draft. The draft ensured teams in those states quickly rose in quality, though they had to learn from the Sydney Swans experience when that team dipped in the late 80s. But they stuck at it unlike with some interstate league sides. Now West Coast eagles has won 3 premierships in 30 years, Brisbane Lions (after replacing the Bears) have won 3 premierships in 20 years and Swans two premierships in 34 years. Other than Brisbane and Canberra, both League towns, no new club has risen so fast since the Dogs in the 30s. The point being the AFL gave these clubs through the draft, a boost that ensured they would become successful. They are trying hard for Gold Coast and West Sydney as has been seen of late.

The difference is not that AFL is a better game than league. Its because its managed really well, and part of that is its draft which ensures a degree of equity among its teams. That's why they get big crowds. Teams are more competitive

Generally solid points, but the talk about Perth being anything but AFL dominant is not correct.
The WAFL has been the top tier of local sporting competition in any code since early last century, with the WARL competition only beginning in the early 50's.

League in Perth hit it's high water mark with a combination of League being broadcast live by the late 80s (on the back of that Tina Turner promotions) and surge of immigration from the Eastern States and NZ.

The Reds didn't start until 1995 but had the goodwill of the local League population and 'shiny new toy' curiosity for the remainder. They had a great first season but their fatal mistake was to jump to the SL fence; most League fans over there had their 'old' clubs to support and the majority were ARL-aligned loyalists.

Fans walked away from them and new interest was hard to generate given the poor ground option (WACA) and uninterested local media (non News Ltd).

It is true that Perth is the far more accepting of new endeavours outside of AFL, with the Glory and Force building up good fan bases, and League is definitely on a surer footing there than even Melbourne (despite having the Storm). But it is AFL that has/will always dominated with the WAFL support comparable to the BRL in local engagement, followed by their elevation into the VFL/AFL on the national stage.

 

[Supreme Leader]

Just a couple of observations;

1) Most drafts have dispensations for clubs on family legacy, if your parent/ brother played for a club then you can join that club outside draft, also same applies for juniors - you bring a player through grade - you have first rights on signing him. That works.

2) Most drafts have external negotiations so a club can get a player they want. ie #1 draft selection can be sold to another club for say a later first round pick plus maybe a 2nd & 3rd round. Would be interesting as a club needs to consider short term gain for long term performance. That works to.

3) Is a draft the answer. Why not make it compulsory for each registered player to provide details of any third party payment and if caught rorting they get deregistered with a 5 year ban? The give each club a limit on third party payments for their playing roster can receive for each year ie $5mil. This gives transparency and equality.

4) Common-sense would say that players who have been 1 club players or played for a club for more than 5 years (stats indicate less than 2% of all players) should have there value decreased under salary cap proportional to length of service, say that a player has been at a club for 7 years then their club cost on salary cap should be the min wage allocated to NRL player not what he actually paid.

My thoughts anyway....

 

[Bearfax]

Souffs hadn't won in 47 years, and Parra haven't in over 30 years and Cronulla hadn't won for 50 years. didn't seem to diminish their support or fan base.

When you have tribalism people stick solid. A washed out equitable, fair and artificially manufactured comp will just sap the passion out of the game.

You have seen the result of the NRL "managing" the ref's and in turn having them "manage" the game. Wait til they start to "manage" playing rosters.

Nothing could possibly go wrong .. could it?

Souths crowds are no where near what they were during their halcyon days in the 60s and 70s and that's even taking into consideration the smallness of Redfern Oval. Many of their Match of the Day matches exceeded 40,000. Paramatta had crowds 50% higher in the 80s compared to recent years. Cronulla has never been a big drawer of crowds. Back in the early 80s they were averaging 8-9 thousand a match. Today its around 13-14 thousand. Souths went down hill because they almost went broke. Parramatta had the money but serious mismanagement stuffed them. Cronulla is on the rise now but almost disappeared twice in the past when the coffers went dry.

I pointed out that I thought it unworkable to have a draft for players never graded, but that teams be limited to a set number of graded players so they dont buy every available player before grading. So ungraded players are free cattle. Mind you if they were graded, we may miss out on TT and JT but we may end up with Ponga and Tedesco. That's the luck of the draft. But I'm only talking about graded players

As for the loyalty factor, a player is more likely to stick with the one club rather than risk the unknown. Players would be more likely to stick with the one club for most of their career if they are happy. A club cant come along and offer a huge incentive because they cant be sure of winning the draft. I would suggest also that clubs would be more stable and less before the news for fraudulent activities. Drugs will be in all codes, but without the need to fudge the figures there is little purpose in financial fraudulence to gain advantage. How often, outside of drugs, do you hear serious negative reports on AFL clubs. It happens but makes NRL look like clean skins.

As far as sapping the passion out of the game Woodsie, I think you've got it back to front. Aussie Rules is highly tribalism and succeeds big time with the structure they have. Since SuperLeague, Rugby League has lost much of its passion and support, and the present admin is trying its best to knock the tribalism out of the game.

 

[Supernintendo Chalmers]

Has anyone noticed the one common denominator with those sports leagues (AFL, NFL, NBA etc) who have a successful draft system?

Not one of the clubs in those leagues has a junior system. That means that they aren't losing players they've brought though from juniors and spent countless time and money on. All of the players they get come from elsewhere.

Look at the AFL for example. Not one of the 16 AFL clubs has its own juniors they can bring through the grades. All the talented juniors coming through do so through the various state leagues and the clubs in those leagues. They get plundered year after year by the AFL draft and its little wonder the state leagues often struggle (but that's another story for another time).

Clubs producing talented juniors like most NRL clubs do wouldn't be too enthused to lose those players in a draft system.

Agree here, and while it will never happen, I'd like to see a better focus on the Juniors and essentially two main competitions running. Pump some good money into a high quality juniors comp that plays before the seniors (more games to potentially televise, better value for money on game day) which is for 18-23yolds (maintain the lower junior comps for underage), then seniors 23 and older. Juniors can't play in seniors until they hit age, but if you develop a player through the juniors for a certain amount of time, you get first offer on them when they hit seniors age. If club declines, player goes into a draft.
A reserves state comp also runs for seniors who can't quite crack firsts, but that is run seperate from the "main clubs" and at suburban grounds - non televised.
Eg. Manly has a seniors and juniors, while the state comp they'd have a link with say a Northern Sydney team they can play 5-10 additionally contracted players who aren't making grade they can call upon if injuries occur.

We've come too far with the current set up for it to ever work though , as you'd need big $ to invest in the juniors now that we have 20 yolds signing massive deals, you'd need to be able to pay them similar to what they can be earning in current set up.
I think it would extend careers, take a lot of the pressure off kids who come in overhyped too young, and give a better pathway to the top.
I'm dreaming though.