12 & 13

[Kiwi Eagle]

But HAVE we been better with Jake and Ben there? I wonder what our win % over the years with them both in the team sits at (particularly with both starting).

With Jake, he isn't getting better. You know what you get. And that's solid. Ben....not sure it's hate mate. We all see the arm grabbing, the lazy ruck play, the lethargic runs, the terrible lateral movement. Anyways, hope he turns it around. 22, there's heaps of room for growth.

Having them BOTH on, plus say Sipley, Aloiai & others (as example) there is zero joke running, line breaking , up tempo footy there. Mix it up, throw Lawton, Brown, there's a bit more.

Lodge, I agree. Since his ACL he's been shocking. Then to get another long term injury - yikes. But he's always been injury prone. We knew what we were getting but I think his contract was a job for the boys. I do think Flanagan will trim him down though.

Saying Jake is just solid does a disservice to him. When a big bopper from the other side is coming back at us from a kickoff, he stops them dead and nullifies momentum. There was one standout game for me, think it was against the Storm, we had them covered comfortably, Seibold gave Jake a rest for 5mins, and we fell to bits and let them back in. Sure it’s not all down to him, but we are a better footy side the more time Jake spends out there. It may not be pretty, but it is the hard working 1 preventers that help get the job done in tight games, and he has a knack of being in the right place at the right time despite how slow he is etc

Not saying you’re completely wrong and it isn’t worth exploring, but it is still underestimated somehow what Jake offers the team when he is out there

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

“Jake Trbojevic has copped a bit of grief lately because he probably doesn’t smash the running metres metric that the media love to use. The reality is that this guy works so hard off the ball, leads the line speed in defence and does all the little things.

In attack, he leads the NRL in push supports.

So when a teammate is taking a carry, Jake is the league’s best at running in support as an option to pass. This takes a lot of effort with no real recognition on the stat sheet, but it helps his teammates so much.

When Jake pushes up, the defensive line must hold out and respect him as an option. That means big units like Taniela Paseka and Josh Aloiai often draw 1-2 man tackles instead of the 3-4 man tackles they’d cop without push support. As a result they are easier carries, able to carry further (especially post-contact metres) and help Manly win the field position battle”

 

[The Who]

“Jake Trbojevic has copped a bit of grief lately because he probably doesn’t smash the running metres metric that the media love to use. The reality is that this guy works so hard off the ball, leads the line speed in defence and does all the little things.

In attack, he leads the NRL in push supports.

So when a teammate is taking a carry, Jake is the league’s best at running in support as an option to pass. This takes a lot of effort with no real recognition on the stat sheet, but it helps his teammates so much.

When Jake pushes up, the defensive line must hold out and respect him as an option. That means big units like Taniela Paseka and Josh Aloiai often draw 1-2 man tackles instead of the 3-4 man tackles they’d cop without push support. As a result they are easier carries, able to carry further (especially post-contact metres) and help Manly win the field position battle”

Remember the days before stats ruled? You'd watch a match and know who had a good game or not. These days fans check stats and then decide. The post from Kiwi Eagle highlights how unedifying stats can be.
I remember 45 years (or so) when newspapers started reporting stats, including player "errors". One Manly player was so incensed by having "errors" recorded about his performance that he threatened to sue (he never did). His argument was "only the player is fit to judge if he'd made an error", claiming that reporting "errors" potentially had a negative effort on his contract value...
He's correct in a way. How many professions have such scrutiny over their job performance? Did that carpenter you just used to build a fence make any mistakes; waste any timber, get any nails out of alignment...?

 

[Kiwi Eagle]

I should have added that bit of narrative came from Christian Welsch

 

[maxta]

I know this will be an unpopular post, because we are talking about many fans favorite player(s) here, but I think we need to look at this backrow and lock position going forward to stay in touch with the modern game. As we've seen recently, when we've had Lawton / Brown filling in there (2 players with some mobility, leg speed, and intensity at the line), we've looked MUCH better in both attack and defense.

But what do we do?

Jake Trbojevic: Here's the toughest one. He adds so much value character, leadership and often in defense. To offset that (if we are being honest), he offers very little in attack (he looks like he's running in quicksand), and he can certainly give away a penalty (his defense seems to be tapering off). It's this reason I believe he's given very little minutes in Origin - you just can't risk a player of his pace against the elite speed, pace and mobility of those other representative players. My view, is that he needs to lose 15 k/g's odd, and move into a prop rotation (basically replacing Lodge who should probably go). Before you rip me for saying that, look at how it rejuvenated Talau (he's got a new lease on life right now to almost becoming some peoples favorite player !!). It will also prolong his career guys. We also needs to avoid having too many of the same types of players (Jake, Lodge, Woods, Sips, Condon, Aloiai, Burbo, James, Brown - all lumbering types).

Ben Trbojevic: He's 22, so can develop. But look at our difference in both attack and defense with Lawton in the 12. We honestly need a hole running, ball playing, lighter, faster, more mobile and agile backrower here. Burbo's defense is also deplorable. I think it's due to lack of lateral movement in defense. He's a spot defender, and gets targeted due to his size, and arm grabbing. I WANT him to be different. In the junior grades, he was QUICK. I don't know what's happened. The below is not what we are getting. He had an inner Turbo in him here:

My solutions:

1. Jake to prop (and with quite a bit of weight off)
2. Acquire a Liam Martin, Victor Radley, Karl Lawton (lite) for that 12 jersey
3. IF we stick with Burbo (use someone like Arthur if he hasn't gone) in the 13
4. If we get a new more mobile 12, move Nathan Brown into the starting 13 position pending point 1.

Thought's guys?

Definitely like the Brown at 13
Jake front row

The other backrower we are looking for is not there yet and hopefully with some improvement, Ben has some potential
The problem with Ben in 2024, does some imporoved plays like a tough vigorous charge, or a tackle more aggressive than usual,,,,then is back to that lightweight gangly backrower that gets dominated....still young so Hope can maintain that "Bully Ben" as we don't need another nice bloke in the forwards

 

[Dion Johnson]

With Ben when the game is in the wrestle it takes a lot out of him and he becomes fatigued at times playing in the backrow, playing centre the workload is less and keeps him switched on, his best games have been at centre on the right side for me.

It’s not a criticism of Ben it’s the development of being a first grade 80 minute backrower he is developing into, the bench would also benefit him where he would miss the first 20-30 minutes.

Maybe a big offseason will have him in physical condition for the demands of being an 80 minute backrower next season.