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Teams wanting to give penalties away

Discussion in 'Rugby League Forum' started by Technical Coach, Sep 29, 2014.

  1. Technical Coach

    Technical Coach Well-Known Member

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    For many years now you will notice teams especially in the first 10mins of each half slowing the play the ball for such an obvious extended time, not going back the ten or leaving too early--- wanting to give a penalty away.

    Why you might ask well some coaches have the theory it is better to rack up early penalty counts against themselves while fresh so they get away with more in the back end of halves when fatigue creeps in.

    Generating 4-5 penalties in the first 10-15mins usually means on average you will only receive a further 2-3 for the rest of the half and in some instances if you have a ref wanting to keep a low penalty count(for the whole game) you might only get 2-3 more for the rest of the game.

    The last thing a team needs is back to back penalties against them when fatigue is kicking in at the back end of halves---the theory does not always work out but there is a growing feeling it offers more positives than negatives.

    Too many square up patterns and rules that are not black and white allowing teams to dictate to refs not the other way around.

    Problem is it will take 2yrs of pain and constant outcry over way too many penalties given away to turn the tide---the coaches and players are ruling the game to the point of killing it.
     
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  2. simon64

    simon64 Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Unfortunately, giving away 4-5 penalties in the first 10-15 minutes can result in you being 18-0 down too.
     
  3. Technical Coach

    Technical Coach Well-Known Member

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    Not often if you have good defence as the Roosters proved last year being the most penalised team in the comp.

    Obviously going off this finals series it would "appear" not worthwhile but you have to take the whole season into account to see the benefits.

    In saying that most of the teams that were behind did come back once penalties even out and momentum swings back their way proving that you just have to defend a little better at the start to make it work.
     
  4. Killer03

    Killer03 Well-Known Member

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    It's funny you bring this up TC because I remember a game in the last couple of years where a team gave away penalties, and then had repeat set after repeat set on their line and managed to defend it. It was one of the Johns's (can't remember if Joey or Matt) who said giving away possession at the start of the game and defending for 5-10mins straight isn't that big a problem, you are fresh and adrenalin pumped and sometimes that's the best time to not have the ball. Plus if you come away and have defended your line you can gain a big mental result from it, just as the attacking team can drop their heads.
     
  5. SwornEagle

    SwornEagle Well-Known Member

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    It's just another way of highlighting referee bias and showing how much control they have over the outcomes of NRL matches, and how players/coaches are trying to use this to their advantage.
     
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  6. Masked Eagle

    Masked Eagle Well-Known Member

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    I think the general standard of referring is quite poor, but that being said their job would be a helluva lot easier if players didn't cheat.

    No doubt teams know there are instances where giving away a penalty is definitely worth it, not only because they aren't reallypunished if they do give it away but the referees just don't seem to even penalise them. There are a few in particular and they are at both ends of the field. Defending their own line which we all know about and also when they have teams coming out of their own end the defences will risk giving away penalties by leaving early to put early set pressure on teams coming out of their own end. Actually its not even a risk because they simply aren't penalised at all. Teams are rarely penalised for being inside the 10m, they might be getting back but are clearly moving way too early.
     
  7. globaleagle

    globaleagle Où est mon chapeau Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    but but but how can this be? The ref's tell us they do not do square ups and rarely even know the penalty count????????!?!?!??!?!?!1111oneoneone
     
  8. SeaEagleRock8

    SeaEagleRock8 Sea Eagle Lach Staff Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    If this was true, surely the instructions would be to only give away penalties on tackle 1 or 2. Those are the plays that can stunt the oppositions whole set of 6 if you get away with it, and if you don't it still doesn't cost too many extra tackles in defence, and not too much distance from the touch-finder if the penalty is conceded close to the sideline.

    Also a penalty for slowing the play the ball would be better than for off-side, because for off-side the penalty is 10m further downfield??
     
  9. Shoe1

    Shoe1 Well-Known Member

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    I agree tc. Also look how many penalties teams give up on tackle 1. It only means defending one extra tackle. It ****s me how many penalties manly got this year on tackle 1, often square ups. We want them on 4 or 5 thanks!
     
  10. Mark from Brisbane

    Mark from Brisbane Living the dream Premium Member

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    I have been saying for years that the refs are deciding matches, maybe I was wrong maybe it's cheating players manipulating the system.

    I wonder if they introduced a system of binning a player say every 3 penalties would see this continue. I know seems a bit unfair , and doubt it would ever see the light of day but maybe 5 mins in the bin for every 3rd penalty??

    Probably not the answer BUT how else do you control this???
     
  11. globaleagle

    globaleagle Où est mon chapeau Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    They could start with bringing back the 5 min penalty....then not being afraid to use it.

    Refs know that 10 mins is too much of the game and so only use it sparingly.

    Even 3 mins would be something. Or if 10 mins and the non penalised team scores...penalty is over (but that is an ice hockey rule)

    But for starters.....5 min penalties and get refs to stop saying....

    "No need to come in; Let us control the game; or the classic....If it happens again, someone may be sitting down." - (and they never sit anyone down)
     
  12. Rodo

    Rodo Goldmember 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Great idea Mark.

    I was talking to my AFL loving mate yesterday about foul play in both NRL and AFL and things seem to work so much better in AFL. You don't see much foul play in AFL because if a foul is conceded against a team then that team will get to move 50 m down field (and more often than not in range for a goal - an easy 6 points) so they are less likely to give away a penalty. There is no ref back chat and refs make decisions fairly swiftly.

    In NRL gaining a penalty does not mean anywhere nearly as much. This needs to change and sending players to the bin for 5 minutes for repeat offences would be a great way to do it.

    The refs also need to take more control of games, not let the players run it and penalise teams for ANY offence. Repeated offences should get the same treatment even if the team has been penalised for the same thing multiple times. Whatever happened to the rule they brought in this year where only captains could speak to the ref and this was restricted to particular times in the game?
     
  13. Mark from Brisbane

    Mark from Brisbane Living the dream Premium Member

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    See what happens when fans have some input , oh but in the words of our football operation manager " we have this under control".

    The NRL should have ( and listen to) a forum of fans from each club at the end of every season, and not just take notes BUT take action!!
     
  14. The Who

    The Who Well-Known Member

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    Interesting theory TC.
    But how come the Book-Cookers only gave away one penalty in the entire 80 minute grand final last year?
    Oh, that's right. Shame Hayne was their 14th man.
    I'm surprised I haven't read an outcry from the Book-Cooker fans that Shame Hayne wasn't selected to officiate their loss to the Vermin. Rusty must have outbid Politis for his services.
     
  15. Technical Coach

    Technical Coach Well-Known Member

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    When you are trying to just generate a quick run up of penalties the best way to do it is to vary it a little.

    Slowing the play the ball is the best option but a ref will want to be seen as clamping down on many areas at once and will start to be more lenient after a few penalties in the same area.

    It's also about the bigger picture and how you want the game to be ruled.

    (Not saying this happens but just to illustrate my point)
    Souths for example might give away 4 penalties at the start for slow play the balls in the hope that the balancing penalties are for the same reason in the back end of halves to allow Isacc Luke to take advantage of their rolling forward pack.

    On the flip side the ref is lenient on Souths slowing down the play the ball due to already pinning them several times in this area an advantage for bigger forward packs in the back end of halves, mind you Souths have done a Manly and really dominated tackles and deserve to be rewarded.

    You might as a team want a team to be penalised more for inside the 10 in certain parts of the game to give more space to your backs when it is most advantageous.

    In the early stages of a game giving up 10m is not a big deal and if the ref does not penalise for this reason more benefit to you it is worth the risk early on.

    The refs are in a no win situation, too many rules can be interpreted differently(which will always happen but way too many at the moment) , others are not black and white, if they penalise like crazy there will be 100 penalties a game and if they don't penalise enough teams/coaches take advantage the rules have become a joke.

    Play the balls are a joke merely making a "genuine" effort to use your foot is enough this list goes on and on.
    [hr]
    It is a GF, many big games are policed differently not all but an increased amount that is for sure.

    I think the penalty count was 5-2 so well under the average of around 13 which is to be expected for a GF.
    [hr]
    It would be oh so "UnAustralian" to manipulate the refs or "Dive" or "Cheat"---we tend to judge other nations sporting cultures as cheats and not in the spirit of the game when really Professional Team Sport in Australia has really only hit off in the last 15-20 years.

    Even doping was seen as "UnAustralian" there just was not enough financial incentive in the past to do so.

    It is more the Ref's being played than the Refs "deliberately" deciding games, it is like a Poker game and the coaches/teams are winning the battle.

    Rules have to be more Black and White unlike people like Gus wanting rules that have an element of "that is just rugby league let it go rule foundation". Both sides have their negatives but at the moment we keep going around in circles and nothing is improving.

    If we continue on the same path The Ref Rules Boss will change every 2 years pretty much as is happening now which goes to show we are getting it all wrong.

    Let's not mistake this post as crying poor Manly is not in the GF, we never had the team to do so this year.
     
  16. Mark from Brisbane

    Mark from Brisbane Living the dream Premium Member

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    So really its a "if you can't beat them join them" situation TC.

    Unless you don't it will be a case of the best side not ever winning, its just who manipulates the game and its rules best.

    I have been prattling on here for 2 -3 years now about how the refs are determining the games, have never heard this angle before so thank you for enlightening us.

    If this is true (and I don't doubt it is) then its really a sad state of affairs.

    And to think I only ever thought this happened in that bloody silly Soccer game.
     
  17. The Who

    The Who Well-Known Member

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    TC, can you now confirm that rugby league players are attending acting classes to emulate the theatrics of their soccer counterparts?
    Having an actor as an owner has reaped dividends for Souffs.
     
  18. Technical Coach

    Technical Coach Well-Known Member

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    The better teams still win in my eyes but they also manipulate and push the rules best also lol.(remember a team includes a coach and the better the coach the better they coach to manipulate)

    It's sort of like the 100m sprint at the Olympics remove the juice from the competitors and you will probably still get the same result.
     
  19. Killer03

    Killer03 Well-Known Member

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    The big thing for me regarding the refs is that they need to stop managing the game. I absolutely refuse to believe that this means we will see 40 or 50 penalties a game. The players (and coaches) are not stupid. Sure we might see a game or two at the start of the season with a heap of penalties.....but they'll learn quick. The big issue is again CONSISTENCY. This is where the NRL and the refs let themselves down. They treat the players like modern day children and they are the modern day parents that want to be best friends with their kids.....they let them get away with it, get away with it....blow up and then the kids for a little while pull back a little and then slowly start testing the waters and pushing the boundaries. Instead of setting these boundaries and the players know the rules and what's acceptable.

    What gives me the irits is remember in 2011 DCE got a penalty against the Storm in Rd 1 because he took a goal line drop out about half a foot in front of the line? Now again I had zero problem with the rule, but after a couple of rounds those rules just went out the window. So this again lends itself to some players and clubs screaming bias. When I think the reality is just incompetence or perhaps that's a bit harsh and just being overawed.

    Players and coaches cannot hold themselves to some lofty ideal of
    1) We wont go down if there is a touch on the chin
    2) We wont wrestle
    3) We wont.....

    Any team that doesn't engage in pushing the boundaries simply cannot win.
     
  20. Fluffy

    Fluffy Well-Known Member

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    mentioned this ages ago, glad you caught up TC
     

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