Shameful lack of tradition

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Don't have a "pride day". Have an "inclusion day" - and just hope to hell the colours are of the right shade for the princesses who wear our jerseys.

It's argumentative to suggest a clear see through G-banger is the same as a jersey with a pride rainbow on it.
The see through g-banger was the most extreme example I could think of knowing your response would be one of:
  • its against the law
  • its culturally/socially inappropriate
  • it makes you feel uncomfortable
These are all reasons the religious boys would have had to not wear the jersey. Hopefully you can see the correlation and have some empathy for the players who have been put in this position by the clubs lack of foresight and shortsightedness. The LGBQTIA+ community and the religious players are both victims in this. There are no winners.

@rj90 Sorry for calling you a peanut brain lefty.
 
On the contrary it is precisely the same issue. I suspect you're allowing the emotive aspects of the sex related elements of LGBTQ to see this differently. We cant discriminate against people in acting against them, but we cant be denied our right to hold an opinion or belief.

See it this way. I employ a a child care person, and in a manner almost have them as part of the family. They do their job well and I pay them as an employee. As I suggested a situation arises and I need the child care worker to join a family function and I offer only a meal that is not Kosher or Halal depending upon whether the person is a committed Judaism or Muslim. Their personal faith does not effect their role and I have accepted them in my employ knowing their faith is important to them. That person is not denying your right to eat non Kosher or Halal meals but its understood the cant eat it.

You've made a meal though that places them in a position of acting against their faith. What a person chooses in their personal life is their business not the clubs, not an employer, if that position is known. Fundamentally it is asking a person to betray their beliefs. Canterbury understood this with Hopoate when he said he couldn't play on Sundays. They agreed to the contract, knowing his position. Whether we think its all rubbish or not, it is important to them. Otherwise 7 Pac Islanders would not be making the stand. To dismiss it, is to show disrespect for their faith. They are not opposing the clubs right to have the Guernsey used by other players, they are merely stating that based on their beliefs they cant wear that item
You're drawing correlation between someone not esting a meal due to their religious beliefs to someone not wearing a jersey promoting inclusivity of gay people due to their religious beliefs.

One is food, the other is human.
 
My friend its important to see issues through the eyes of others as best you can, not just your own.They have a point of view based on a lifetime of experiences. as well. You have the right to believe what you believe about this issue, and I probably dont believe elements of what you believe much differently. But if I am allowed that right, so are they. You have a right to believe what you choose to believe and live your life based on that belief. No different. I have friends who are anti-vaxers, Creationists, pro-Putinists, anti climate change believers, conspiracy enthusiasts, red necks some with racists attitudes. Most are intelligent and generally reasonable people. I dont believe what they believe but they have a right to believe what they choose to believe. I have no right to force them into a situation that betrays that belief to them unless they cause harm to others. What you believe and how you live your personal life, is your business, not a Big Brother's. Read 1984, which addresses this issue very well.
Discrimination cannot simply be excused with the "religious beliefs" card.

It's a shield used to avoid having to examine your true feelings on the matter & make a decision based on what YOU really think.

Your example of the halal meal - does it result in anyone being marginalised or just a meal going cold & being thrown away?
 
Speaking of #pride, this is how Manly got its name. It's pretty camp I reckon.

Gov Phillip: “The Boats, in passing near a point of land in this Harbour, were seen by a
number of Men, and twenty of them waded into the water unarmed, received what was
offered them, and examined the Boats with a curiosity, that gave me a much higher
opinion of them, than I had formed from the behaviour of those seen in Captain Cooks
Voyage. And their confidence, and manly behaviour made me give the name of
Manly Cove to this place.

Published in Hunter, p300.
 
Speaking of #pride, this is how Manly got its name. It's pretty camp I reckon.

Gov Phillip: “The Boats, in passing near a point of land in this Harbour, were seen by a
number of Men, and twenty of them waded into the water unarmed, received what was
offered them, and examined the Boats with a curiosity, that gave me a much higher
opinion of them, than I had formed from the behaviour of those seen in Captain Cooks
Voyage. And their confidence, and manly behaviour made me give the name of
Manly Cove to this place.

Published in Hunter, p300.
"received what was offered them" 😂
 
a question from a friend....what happens god forbid (the word god being used loosely here) if one of Manly's players were indeed gay? Would that mean the Polynesian players who wont wear a jersey or any other player with similar thoughts/beliefs wont play in the same team as him because it is against their principles? And another question from another friend.... it is not ok in today's society to express negative comments/beliefs about someone's race, creed, colour, country of origin, gender and/or religion and anyone who expresses those thoughts we would call a xenophobe, racist, radical, misogynist, misandrist or zealot but it is ok to state your objections about someone's sexuality and refuse to accept that sector of society and those people's decisions to live their lives in that way? We all know I am dim witted... just asking!!!!! But yes just struggling to grasp the double standard concepts in play here. I certainly am not a lefty or a righty...I would say I am in the middle of the political pendulum. While I support sexual freedom and gay and lesbian rights and believe that if people want to live that way and are doing so in a peace abiding way and within the law - go for it.... but it certainly is not my thing but I accept it is for others. Then asking for a third friend... if we had a player in our team who refused to accept Polynesians or Mormons or I suppose Jews or our Indigenous brothers and sisters and anyone else and believed their views and lifestyle were unacceptable....for whatever reason...that would also be acceptable because that was their belief or opinion or religion and we would support their ability to freedom of expression/beliefs? Their views also would be ok to refuse say to wear an Indigenous round jersey? Now don't get me wrong in hindsight the club has handled this woefully...with the lack of consultation and consideration of their religious views but that is in hindsight. I doubt the club asks the players for their views about Indigenous jerseys, women in League jerseys, Anzac jerseys, white ribbon jerseys etc etc. The marketing Department would just come up with the idea and it would generally get implemented. It is a huge stuff up... in hindsight. The ramifications of this will be long and far reaching I have no doubt and will probably damage the playing group longer term. But I suppose if I was running the marketing Department.. I would have run it past the Acting CEO and no I wouldn't have thought that a jersey would offend so many in the club. The club is sponsored by alcohol outlets and gambling companies and I would have gathered that those arrangements would also be against the principles of the Polynesian players? Certainly in most of the religions that our players are affiliated with according to the media... gambling and alcohol are forbidden. By the way... I am not interested in a debate or reading answers to my questions nor will I read pathetic vitriol just raising some issues for more thought. I am just not sure that you can demand to respected and not be discriminated against because of your skin colour or cultural background or religion etc etc but you can actively discriminate against others..... again for whatever reason. I love this club - I am a manic Manly supporter since 1972/3 but to me you can't espouse your virtues/views and beliefs based on your religion about one issue yet not have the same hardline stance on other issues that are forbidden in your religion or at least which are not looked on favourably. I am just astounded by the many levels of hypocrisy that I see here all because of a jersey with different colours which did not mention the words gay/lesbian/gay pride etc... well not that I saw.
 
I have always admired Will Hopoate, just as I have always respected the many Polynesian players who have put their footy careers to one side in order to undertake service as a Mormon missionary. That's genuine commitment to one's religion and beliefs.

But if religious beliefs are so important to our players - to the extent that they trump their professional and inter-personal obligations, and any form of compromise is therefore out of the question - then they should find other jobs. They are footy players, and footy players are required to wear jerseys. Those jerseys represent their clubs and, for better or worse, the club's sponsors. Sometimes they also represent charitable or social causes that the club, or the NRL as a whole, stands behind.

Up until this week, nobody ever thought that what was on a jersey represented the player wearing it as an individual. As I said, it represents the club. So no one ever thought, "Pointsbet! Josh Aloiai is an ambassador for Pointsbet! He fully endorses and approves of Pointsbet and all their activities!" If anyone thought anything about it at all, it would be something along the lines of, "Oh, Manly is sponsored by a betting agency". But throw a rainbow-coloured stripe on there, and suddenly the jersey becomes a symbol of individual freedom and expression to the point where we are supposed to be applauding players for their bravery in choosing not to wear it.

If you take religion out of it, take Polynesian culture out of it, take away all the words in all the opinion columns and all the forum posts here and elsewhere, it comes down to this: They don't want to wear the jersey because they don't believe that gay people should be included in rugby league or the wider community. No one is "brave" enough to say it out loud, but behind all the posturing ("God doesn't like gay people - and I'm just following the big guy's lead here"), that's the message: Gays are bad, and gays are not welcome. So if you're standing up for their right to express their opinions and beliefs, that's the opinion and/or belief they are expressing.

And yes, they have a right to express that belief and opinion. But don't dance around it, as if the right to express an opinion is the be-all and end-all of the discussion. Don't cloak it as a "religious belief" or a "cultural belief"; tell me exactly what that belief is and have the courage to stand by it. And accept the consequences that come with it.

The Australian community is of course made up of groups from many different backgrounds, with different cultural and religious backgrounds, but we also have a set of shared values and expectations. And while we all have the right to express our opinions and beliefs, that doesn't mean all of those beliefs and opinions are of equal weight, nor should they be. Some opinions and beliefs are just plain wrong. The Earth is not flat. The world is not run by a shadowy cabal of space aliens. The Parramatta Eels are not a good rugby league team. And gay people are not evil, or less worthy, or different to anybody else.


Sorry Ron but that's just value judgements. Do you think you are right in what you say. It is only right to you. Its not in itself right. As I've suggested many times there is no right or wrong. They are merely constructs and develop in different ways depending upon the society. I have an opinion, but its not right, its merely right for me at this particular time. If you assume there is an ultimate right, then I would suggest you have been conditioned to think that way. Take a look around the World at different cultures and they all see right and wrong in a particular way. The one advantage we have in Australia is that we dont have the equivalent of Thought Police determining how we should think. We are free to think and believe as we choose, whether others think we are wrong or not. People travel a long road in their life that leads them to think and believe what they do. It is embedded in their life. We couldnt change it even if we wanted to. And how I think is right for me at this time, just as with these Polynesians, what they think is right for them. We have no right to demand that they think otherwise because in the end that assumes that we are right, and I would suggest that's merely our conditioning
 
a question from a friend....what happens god forbid (the word god being used loosely here) if one of Manly's players were indeed gay? Would that mean the Polynesian players who wont wear a jersey or any other player with similar thoughts/beliefs wont play in the same team as him because it is against their principles? And another question from another friend.... it is not ok in today's society to express negative comments/beliefs about someone's race, creed, colour, country of origin, gender and/or religion and anyone who expresses those thoughts we would call a xenophobe, racist, radical, misogynist, misandrist or zealot but it is ok to state your objections about someone's sexuality and refuse to accept that sector of society and those people's decisions to live their lives in that way? We all know I am dim witted... just asking!!!!! But yes just struggling to grasp the double standard concepts in play here. I certainly am not a lefty or a righty...I would say I am in the middle of the political pendulum. While I support sexual freedom and gay and lesbian rights and believe that if people want to live that way and are doing so in a peace abiding way and within the law - go for it.... but it certainly is not my thing but I accept it is for others. Then asking for a third friend... if we had a player in our team who refused to accept Polynesians or Mormons or I suppose Jews or our Indigenous brothers and sisters and anyone else and believed their views and lifestyle were unacceptable....for whatever reason...that would also be acceptable because that was their belief or opinion or religion and we would support their ability to freedom of expression/beliefs? Their views also would be ok to refuse say to wear an Indigenous round jersey? Now don't get me wrong in hindsight the club has handled this woefully...with the lack of consultation and consideration of their religious views but that is in hindsight. I doubt the club asks the players for their views about Indigenous jerseys, women in League jerseys, Anzac jerseys, white ribbon jerseys etc etc. The marketing Department would just come up with the idea and it would generally get implemented. It is a huge stuff up... in hindsight. The ramifications of this will be long and far reaching I have no doubt and will probably damage the playing group longer term. But I suppose if I was running the marketing Department.. I would have run it past the Acting CEO and no I wouldn't have thought that a jersey would offend so many in the club. The club is sponsored by alcohol outlets and gambling companies and I would have gathered that those arrangements would also be against the principles of the Polynesian players? Certainly in most of the religions that our players are affiliated with according to the media... gambling and alcohol are forbidden. By the way... I am not interested in a debate or reading answers to my questions nor will I read pathetic vitriol just raising some issues for more thought. I am just not sure that you can demand to respected and not be discriminated against because of your skin colour or cultural background or religion etc etc but you can actively discriminate against others..... again for whatever reason. I love this club - I am a manic Manly supporter since 1972/3 but to me you can't espouse your virtues/views and beliefs based on your religion about one issue yet not have the same hardline stance on other issues that are forbidden in your religion or at least which are not looked on favourably. I am just astounded by the many levels of hypocrisy that I see here all because of a jersey with different colours which did not mention the words gay/lesbian/gay pride etc... well not that I saw.
James Graham nailed it imo...
 
This is what kills me most of all, Ryan: the players in question aren't refusing to wear a "Pride" jersey, they are refusing to wear a Manly jersey. Sure, it's got some different colours on the stripes, but first and foremost, it's a Manly jersey. You wear it because Manly is your club. You wear it because you are part of a team. It might have different logos on it from week to week, it might plug betting sponsors or, worse still, Marvel movies, but it is your team's jersey.

And for those of you who think, "Oh, it's only a token gesture and is just 'virtue signalling'", what do you think the players refusing to wear it are signalling?

I don't blame the players as much as I blame the less visible knob-ends around them who have somehow convinced them that refusing to play for their club and their mates is a valid reaction to having their feelings hurt by not being consulted about the addition of rainbow-coloured stripes to the jersey, and used this as an opportunity to leap into a "culture war" when the culture moved past them decades ago.
Classic example of the intolerant calling for tolerance.
 
Ask this simple question. I invite a Jewish friend to dinner. I offer food contrary to his religious Kosher beliefs. Should he be forced to eat the food because I had gone out of my why to pay for his meal? Same issue
Stop making sense. Here lies the problem in a nutshell. Unfortunately the elitists can't see it from their high horse.
 
I have always admired Will Hopoate, just as I have always respected the many Polynesian players who have put their footy careers to one side in order to undertake service as a Mormon missionary. That's genuine commitment to one's religion and beliefs.

But if religious beliefs are so important to our players - to the extent that they trump their professional and inter-personal obligations, and any form of compromise is therefore out of the question - then they should find other jobs. They are footy players, and footy players are required to wear jerseys. Those jerseys represent their clubs and, for better or worse, the club's sponsors. Sometimes they also represent charitable or social causes that the club, or the NRL as a whole, stands behind.

Up until this week, nobody ever thought that what was on a jersey represented the player wearing it as an individual. As I said, it represents the club. So no one ever thought, "Pointsbet! Josh Aloiai is an ambassador for Pointsbet! He fully endorses and approves of Pointsbet and all their activities!" If anyone thought anything about it at all, it would be something along the lines of, "Oh, Manly is sponsored by a betting agency". But throw a rainbow-coloured stripe on there, and suddenly the jersey becomes a symbol of individual freedom and expression to the point where we are supposed to be applauding players for their bravery in choosing not to wear it.

If you take religion out of it, take Polynesian culture out of it, take away all the words in all the opinion columns and all the forum posts here and elsewhere, it comes down to this: They don't want to wear the jersey because they don't believe that gay people should be included in rugby league or the wider community. No one is "brave" enough to say it out loud, but behind all the posturing ("God doesn't like gay people - and I'm just following the big guy's lead here"), that's the message: Gays are bad, and gays are not welcome. So if you're standing up for their right to express their opinions and beliefs, that's the opinion and/or belief they are expressing.

And yes, they have a right to express that belief and opinion. But don't dance around it, as if the right to express an opinion is the be-all and end-all of the discussion. Don't cloak it as a "religious belief" or a "cultural belief"; tell me exactly what that belief is and have the courage to stand by it. And accept the consequences that come with it.

The Australian community is of course made up of groups from many different backgrounds, with different cultural and religious backgrounds, but we also have a set of shared values and expectations. And while we all have the right to express our opinions and beliefs, that doesn't mean all of those beliefs and opinions are of equal weight, nor should they be. Some opinions and beliefs are just plain wrong. The Earth is not flat. The world is not run by a shadowy cabal of space aliens. The Parramatta Eels are not a good rugby league team. And gay people are not evil, or less worthy, or different to anybody else.
The fact that they pick and choose which of their religious doctrine they follow today is what is grinding me. I get that there is no respect and acceptance of same sex relationships in Polynesian society. I also understand that in that culture and in the religions these players were identified as following... gambling and alcohol are similarly non grata... yet there is a hardline stand against sexual expression and same sex relationships but they turn a blind eye to gambling and alcohol given Manly's strong connections with those industries and Pointsbet features prominently on the jerseys. They also demand that their religion and culture is respected and their views and beliefs accepted but wont accept the views/beliefs/lifestyles of others in society. Hypocrisy on so many levels.
 
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