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Black Caviar

Discussion in 'Off and Racing' started by Chip and Chase, May 19, 2011.

  1. Chip and Chase

    Chip and Chase True Supporter Staff Member Administrator Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    13 straight now. What I don't understand is what are the handicappers doing ? Isn't the idea of racing to handicap horses to even up the field ? Surely they should be throwing 80kg or something on it's back to bring it back to the pack. Genuine question, as I'm no racing expert.
     
  2. ManlyBacker

    ManlyBacker Winging it Staff Member

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    Not every race is a handicap. Some are weight for age so that means that it is a set amount to carry depending on age and sex. I won't go into detail of most lower level races but it is possible under the rules to have an advantage as a horse works up through the grades.

    All really big handicaps (usually called Group 1s) have their weights set months in advance - based on the form at the time and also considering whether they want to attract the horse's connections to compete. It is a delicate balancing act. Once those weights are set then there are preliminary races where a horse can earn a penalty, which is then added on, but the owners can always attempt to bypass some or all of these. The big handicaps also have weights assessed based on how previous horses of that age and sex have performed in it. The idea is that it is reasonably fair to all without killing the chance of getting a crowd drawcard horse to nominate. Hope that helps.
     
  3. Chip and Chase

    Chip and Chase True Supporter Staff Member Administrator Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Clear as mud. I understand set weight at WFA, and you would expect that a class horse would always win under that regime.

    So basically at some point they will handicap Black Caviar to a loss I assume, but it may take a while.
     
  4. ManlyBacker

    ManlyBacker Winging it Staff Member

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    Most races she will compete in from now on will be WFA. The exception will be races like the Newmarket (which she has already won), Oakleigh Plate, or The Galaxy which are handicaps. Now she is rated the best horse in the world she could be handicapped so that she could lose, but the top horses often find something extra that no one can identify that sees them win (think of horses like Bernborough). She hasn't gone beyond 1200 and a lot of the big handicaps are 1600, with the Stradbroke @ 1400 being the most likely maybe next year. If she goes overseas those will almost certainly be WFA.
     
  5. ayjay007

    ayjay007 Well-Known Member

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    It will never run in an open handicap (unlimited top weight),but might squeeze into a max top weight race.All weight for age from here on in I'd think.Obviously didn't think it could run the 1350 at Doomben at WFA,so no handicaps.Interesting battle looming in England next year,if,as we all expect,the sheik takes Sepoy to England to race.I think he'd test caviar at 1000 to 1200.
     
  6. clontaago

    clontaago Well-Known Member

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    How many Slipper winners have gone on with it in the last 20 years ayjay? Sepoy will be another one who falls by the wayside.

    BC would break his heart.
     
  7. ayjay007

    ayjay007 Well-Known Member

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    2010-Crystal Lily,2007-Forensics,2006-Miss Finland,2004-Dance Hero,to name a few.The good ones go on with it,most of the others are good breeders.Even those who don't dazzle with gr 1 brilliance,usually pay for themselves over the years.Horses like BC are not up to the past sprinting champs.Campaign King did the 10000/Stradbroke double.Black Piranha's won 2 Stradbrokes.In Melbourne,all the REAL good sprinters used to run in the Lightning/Oakleigh/Newmarket treble.Some won the treble (Placid Ark comes to mind).BC looks like it could carry weight and still win a decent handicap,but,it will be kept in cotton wool,and race the "2nd stringers" for money.(and who can blame the owners).
     
  8. Brookvale

    Brookvale Well-Known Member

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    Bring on Rocketman in the Patinack anf return leg in Hong Kong
     
  9. clontaago

    clontaago Well-Known Member

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    Dance Hero, laughable. None of those you have named are even close to BC in Class. I'm not talking about in terms of paying for themselves. I'm talking about beating Black Caviar. None of them, nor Sepoy, would get close.

    2nd stringers, Hay List would be the best sprinter this country has seen in years if BC wasnt around. She has consistently towelled him up.
     
  10. Brookvale

    Brookvale Well-Known Member

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    Frankel is the only horse that will make it a contest
     
  11. bob dylan

    bob dylan Well-Known Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Get back to me when she has won 29 like San Simeon did in the 70's.

    Or for something more recent Courage Under Fires 24 in row during the lat 90's.
     
  12. ManlyBacker

    ManlyBacker Winging it Staff Member

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    No doubt incredible efforts Bob but I hate comparing Standardbreds with thoroughbreds.

    What do you think of Hay List in the Newmarket? Any other time and he would be today's champion, except for BC. I hate the Flemington 1200 as you never know which is the right side until they race but on paper he should win this one by 2 lengths.
     
  13. clontaago

    clontaago Well-Known Member

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    I'd love to hear Ajay's take on this now, almost 12 months later.
     
  14. Dan

    Dan Administrator Staff Member Administrator 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Hay List, the Stuart McGill of horse racing
     
  15. bob dylan

    bob dylan Well-Known Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Lol
     
  16. clontaago

    clontaago Well-Known Member

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    I do feel sorry for Hay List and more importantly his owners even though he has won almost $2m in prizemoney. He has had 22 starts for 15 wins and 5 seconds (4 to BC).

    Take BC out of the equation and he has probably won closer to $3m.
     
  17. ManlyBacker

    ManlyBacker Winging it Staff Member

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    I love the horse. Keeps coming up at generous odds and yet is easily the second best sprinter in the land. My 'investments' on him are so far in front it is a joke on the bookies. Even when going down to BC it has been daylight third.
     
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  18. clontaago

    clontaago Well-Known Member

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    I was dirty on him last week. I had Buffering at 28/1 and he only just ran him down.
     
  19. Brookvale

    Brookvale Well-Known Member

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    Buffering will get his group 1. he just has to avoid bc & hl. Possibly in hong kong.
     
  20. clontaago

    clontaago Well-Known Member

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    20 in a row. 10 Group 1's.
     

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