Bencher
What I'm trying to express is not to dismiss what you say but to impress upon you and others that your opinions are biased and therefore not reality. Same applies to my opinions. None of them are right and should never be purported to be right. They are just personal perspectives based on how we interpret the game. If you want a truer perspective on the game you have to examine not only the opinions of those who are experienced in playing the game but especially the stats that describe the specific performances of each player. Its not exact, as no assessment is exact. But individual perspectives are the least accurate in determining the worth of a player. If you believe exclusively your own perspective, you are not being honest with yourself
Of course it’s opinion and personal perspective, I think that goes without saying. As iv said many times it’s only my opinion, which equates to nothing in the grand scheme of things. But, it’s a forum, based on personal opinions and views. I think your forgetting that. Now for my personal opinion ( means fuk all) based on the FACT that Dce has LEAD us to nothing in the last 9 years as captain ( not up for debate as that’s fact- you love stats) , I think he should be punted quick smart. Now remember, just my opinion and perspective. 😉
 
Grizzly old fart
Of course it’s opinion and personal perspective, I think that goes without saying. As iv said many times it’s only my opinion, which equates to nothing in the grand scheme of things. But, it’s a forum, based on personal opinions and views. I think your forgetting that. Now for my personal opinion ( means fuk all) based on the FACT that Dce has LEAD us to nothing in the last 9 years as captain ( not up for debate as that’s fact- you love stats) , I think he should be punted quick smart. Now remember, just my opinion and perspective. 😉

Mate I haven't forgotten that but you must understand I was a parole officer for 34 years, a union head for ten and ran a half way house for street teens for 18 months. I see things in very evidence based perspectives and very pragmatically. I respect my perspective is just how I see things and for that reason I seek evidence not to reinforce what I come to accept but to guide my opinions. Gets frustrating when I read unsubstantiated claims
 
Bencher
Mate I haven't forgotten that but you must understand I was a parole officer for 34 years, a union head for ten and ran a half way house for street teens for 18 months. I see things in very evidence based perspectives and very pragmatically. I respect my perspective is just how I see things and for that reason I seek evidence not to reinforce what I come to accept but to guide my opinions. Gets frustrating when I read unsubstantiated claims
Lol again that’s your Opinion and perspective based on facts you seek out. Also you also seem to leave out the FACT your boy has LEAD us to nothing. Everything you say is based on your perspective, as is mine. The fact you’ve been a parole officer means nothing in regards to this subject. And no offence certainly doesn’t give you a better perspective than others.
On a personal view no doubt a long and successful career- congratulations. I mean that.

Now just to play your fact game, how many Dally M of the year has Daly won? Zero. Not Dally M halfback of the year. Lol see what I did there mate? Chose a fact to support my own perspective to support my own claim that he’s not up to it. Just like you have. 😉
Enjoy the off season mate.
 
Bencher
Mate I haven't forgotten that but you must understand I was a parole officer for 34 years, a union head for ten and ran a half way house for street teens for 18 months. I see things in very evidence based perspectives and very pragmatically. I respect my perspective is just how I see things and for that reason I seek evidence not to reinforce what I come to accept but to guide my opinions. Gets frustrating when I read unsubstantiated claims
stats and facts
Jason saab in 2021 .right side winger 1 try in 9 games with just dce
24 tries in 16 games with turbo and dce. Who lit up the right side yet suli had a shocker . you seemed hungry for the truth/ stats

pragmatic

in my opinion nearly every long term silvertails poster that thinks manly would be better off without DCE , admits his freakish talent, understands hiss skill level and realises he tries hard aerobically , is awesome backing up and can back slap a try with the best or em

but those working in DCEs corner fulltime, pro bono types, defenders of the universe in a weird way transfer DCE failing onto other manly players, while they cry foul on ragging on dce a manly player but then ignore the following

Dce us a poor ball player due to just refusing to engage the line which is attitude. He has the tools.
poor kicking game despite some bobby dazzler kicks. Again has the tools but lacks application
poor decision making under pressure refer to semi final v soffs and storm
goes it alone

And the kicker , those are the qualities you need when you hire a halfback.

Roles and responsibilities are in every organisation , and the pro Daly movement ( THE PDM } ignore it completely , didnt hear it , game managewhat . How many examples would i have yo produce to take that from conjecture to fact, asking for a friend

some other ****er will do it seems to be the accepted practice
 
First Grader
Its pretty simple. A half back needs a good team around him to shine. A few years ago when Penrith could not even make the top 8 Cleary wasn't even considered for origin.

You put DCE in the current Penrith side and would excel just as cleary has been.

When both DCE and Cleary play against each other in origin in gun sides DCE has out performed him.
 
First Grader
Cleary doesn't have to deal with playing behind a soft pack, weak defence, a make shift hooker, a full back consistently sitting on the side lines.

Last night clearly had so much time and space, no kick pressure put on him, was able to play the game with 65% of possession at the opponents end of field.

Penrith allow him to do this.

They have only lost 11 games in over 3 years. Amazing football side, one of the best I have seen. Everything is done with intensity and well structured.

Not taking anything away from cleary, he is a gun. Best half in the comp. But very lucky to play in such a dominant side
 
Bencher
Cleary doesn't have to deal with playing behind a soft pack, weak defence, a make shift hooker, a full back consistently sitting on the side lines.

Last night clearly had so much time and space, no kick pressure put on him, was able to play the game with 65% of possession at the opponents end of field.

Penrith allow him to do this.

They have only lost 11 games in over 3 years. Amazing football side, one of the best I have seen. Everything is done with intensity and well structured.

Not taking anything away from cleary, he is a gun. Best half in the comp. But very lucky to play in such a dominant side


yes cleary benefits from the foward platform
as the forwards benefit from clearys kicking game and possession controlled game. the cleary game compliments the riffs forwards perfectly

The labour only respect management if their own work is respected, in any workplace.
 
Grizzly old fart
Of course it’s opinion and personal perspective, I think that goes without saying. As iv said many times it’s only my opinion, which equates to nothing in the grand scheme of things. But, it’s a forum, based on personal opinions and views. I think your forgetting that. Now for my personal opinion ( means fuk all) based on the FACT that Dce has LEAD us to nothing in the last 9 years as captain ( not up for debate as that’s fact- you love stats) , I think he should be punted quick smart. Now remember, just my opinion and perspective. 😉

Mate I haven't forgotten that but you must understand I was a parole officer for 34 years, a union head for ten and ran a half way house for street teens for 18 months. I see things in very evidence based perspectives and very pragmatically. I respect my perspective is just how I see things and for that reason I seek evidence not to reinforce what I come to accept but to guide my opinions. Gets frustrating when I read unsubstantiated claims
Lol again that’s your Opinion and perspective based on facts you seek out. Also you also seem to leave out the FACT your boy has LEAD us to nothing. Everything you say is based on your perspective, as is mine. The fact you’ve been a parole officer means nothing in regards to this subject. And no offence certainly doesn’t give you a better perspective than others.
On a personal view no doubt a long and successful career- congratulations. I mean that.

Now just to play your fact game, how many Dally M of the year has Daly won? Zero. Not Dally M halfback of the year. Lol see what I did there mate? Chose a fact to support my own perspective to support my own claim that he’s not up to it. Just like you have. 😉
Enjoy the off season mate.


Hozza that's where you are mistaken.

What I say is not purely based on opinion. My comment about being a parole officer was to demonstrate that I had to try as best I could year after year to remain as impartial and fact based as I could, otherwise I would have been out of the job. Dont get me wrong I know I still have biiases but its about challenging those biases if they don't seem to fit the factual information.

Its too easy to have favourites and distort your thinking and perception to only see your champion in a positive light and the one you don't like in a negative light. We all do it, often subliminally.

Again I reiterate, I try to have my opinion based on research as much as I can (that was essential in my job and in my novel writing), not just observation. I know I dont have any chance of being aware enough through my own observations alone. So, to try to avoid those biases, I try as best I can to take note of what those who have played the game at that level (not radio jocks and TV commentators but those who've been through the rigors of the game) and the statistical evidence available and, as I said, allow that information to guide my opinion. I'm probably still biased, but as a consequence less so.

What I think may be even contrary to what the evidence suggests in which case I have to ask myself why I see it the way I do. My comments about DCE are based on that process, not purely what I observe. In fact, though I admire the player, he's not my hero. To me he's just a footballer who, measured against others, presents as top tier. And again DCE was Dally M half back of the year in 2014 ( see below). This is what I mean about research and not just opinion

 
Sea Eagle Lach
Premium Member
DCE has been one of the top few halfbacks every single year of his career. Does that mean his huge deal was worth it? No! We would need to have won a comp or at least made a couple of grand finals to make the deal worth it.
Nevertheless he remains a top half (in my opinion anyway) and second only to Cleary. However Hynes could go past him if he keeps his form (hard to see Hynes getting a go in Origin though). Walker might also exceed DCE although that remains to be seen.
 
Bencher
Mate I haven't forgotten that but you must understand I was a parole officer for 34 years, a union head for ten and ran a half way house for street teens for 18 months. I see things in very evidence based perspectives and very pragmatically. I respect my perspective is just how I see things and for that reason I seek evidence not to reinforce what I come to accept but to guide my opinions. Gets frustrating when I read unsubstantiated claims



Hozza that's where you are mistaken.

What I say is not purely based on opinion. My comment about being a parole officer was to demonstrate that I had to try as best I could year after year to remain as impartial and fact based as I could, otherwise I would have been out of the job. Dont get me wrong I know I still have biiases but its about challenging those biases if they don't seem to fit the factual information.

Its too easy to have favourites and distort your thinking and perception to only see your champion in a positive light and the one you don't like in a negative light. We all do it, often subliminally.

Again I reiterate, I try to have my opinion based on research as much as I can (that was essential in my job and in my novel writing), not just observation. I know I dont have any chance of being aware enough through my own observations alone. So, to try to avoid those biases, I try as best I can to take note of what those who have played the game at that level (not radio jocks and TV commentators but those who've been through the rigors of the game) and the statistical evidence available and, as I said, allow that information to guide my opinion. I'm probably still biased, but as a consequence less so.

What I think may be even contrary to what the evidence suggests in which case I have to ask myself why I see it the way I do. My comments about DCE are based on that process, not purely what I observe. In fact, though I admire the player, he's not my hero. To me he's just a footballer who, measured against others, presents as top tier. And again DCE was Dally M half back of the year in 2014 ( see below). This is what I mean about research and not just opinion

Mate your saying the same thing over and over. Maybe if you say it another 1000 times you’ll believe it. Lol
And no I said he hasn’t won Dally M Player of the year- BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE, lol Not just his position. Soooo that’s actually you skewing the facts to support your weak arguments.

Dally M PLAYER of the year-
2022- Nicko Hynes
2021- Tommy T
2020- Jack Wighton
2019- Tedesco
2018- Roger t Sheck
2017- cam smith
2016- Jason Tualmalolo and Cronk
2015- Thurston
2014- j Hayne and Thurston
2013- Cronk
2012- B Barba
2011- billy Slater

No D$E in there mate.
 
Last edited:
True Supporter
Staff member
Administrator
Premium Member
What I think may be even contrary to what the evidence suggests in which case I have to ask myself why I see it the way I do. My comments about DCE are based on that process, not purely what I observe. In fact, though I admire the player, he's not my hero. To me he's just a footballer who, measured against others, presents as top tier. And again DCE was Dally M half back of the year in 2014 ( see below). This is what I mean about research and not just opinion
Despite the fact that this happened over 8 years ago and has little relevance to the player DCE is today, have you even looked at the voting for the Dally M Medal in 2014 ?? Thurston won the overall award (tied with Hayne) but because he played slightly more games at 5/8 than 1/2 he was named 5/8 of the year in the Dally M team. But he was clearly the best half in either 6 or 7 that year. Ben Hunt also outpolled DCE in the votes, finishing ahead of him on the overall list. So DCE wasn't even the second best half back based on Dally M votes.

Have you had any luck researching DCE's Dally M results since 2014 and how many half back of the year awards he has won since then ? Any luck with the list of top 5 finishers in the Dally M's since 2014 ?? That's the sort of good solid research I'm interested in.
 
In for the long haul.
Premium Member
2016 Tipping Competitor
Schuster master-class that game. God I hope it happens next year.
He was great as was Tommy. There's hope. Seeing Reubs playing wing so perfectly, still astounds me that Dessie didn't lave him theret his year and bring Weekes in, But then ... Dessie
 
"I come back to you now at the turn of the tide"
This entire thread would be meaningless if DCE had not been on the large money he's been on.

Big money must mean 'best talent on the planet', right? A combination of Fulton/Lyons/Lyon/Tooves etc who is head and shoulders above every other player, year after year. And LEADS us to 'glory', every time. Really?

The reasons he was signed to that large contract has also been done to death on this forum. It's in the past, and the past cannot be changed.

So - DCE either has to be the best player in the game every year, or - his salary is the reason that we're not winners - all the time. Because DCE is obviously selfish, then, isn't he? We would have a team of superstars across the park if it wasn't for ..........him. And we can't relate to him - because he's well spoken....and from QLD.....and the QLD captain too.....and he's well spoken....did I say he was from QLD?

Do I hope that his 'new' contract is less than his old one? Yes.
Do I wish that he wouldn't race out of the line in defence? Yes.
Is his one on one defense as good as it was 5 years ago? Probably not. Close, but no cigar.
Do all fans everywhere relate to him? No. Do they have to?
Do opposition fans (and commentators / journalists) dislike him? Of course - he's the captain of Manly. Aren't we used to it by now?
Do I believe he gives his all in each game, and LEADS by example? Yes.
Is he more talented/driven/ has game vision than most halfbacks? Seems to be - you don't win a SOO series against Nathan Cleary as your opposite if you're a passenger.
Do I think that he can contribute a lot to our club after he retires? Absolutely - unless he is addicted to reading this particular forum.
Is he perfect? No. No-one is. Are you?
Do I wish that Manly supporters were more united and would stop rubbishing our own captain? Yes.

Discussion is ok - and healthy. The 'absolutes' that are thrown up here: 'he's rubbish', 'he's this'. 'he's that' - are unbalanced and untrue. If you're thinking in 'absolutes' - then it's you that is in a bad space. Take a break and find your happy place.
 
First Grader
His salary is not the reason we are not winning GFs. Most sides have a couple of players on one million and a few close to it. Its still a grey area, how teams manage the cap, 3rd party deals etc.

The year Roosters won recently had bought Crichton, Teddy, and Cronk on 1 million each plus also had Mitchell, Cordner, Keary and a few forwards on decent money.

Melbourne have consistently had a few on a million and a few close to it.

Same with Penrith.

DCE is probably on 200k more than he is worth, but definitely deserves 1 million when you look at the dozen other players on that amount or close and what players are demanding in the open market these days.

Having Tom sit on the sidelines for so long in recent years, no genuine hooker, forwards not delivering consistently enough and still under par outside backs.

Most of the successful sides recently had a few rookies or unknown players really step up. Cowboys a great example this year, similar to sharks.

Hopefully some of our young talent can do the same in coming years.
 
First Grader
A
This entire thread would be meaningless if DCE had not been on the large money he's been on.

Big money must mean 'best talent on the planet', right? A combination of Fulton/Lyons/Lyon/Tooves etc who is head and shoulders above every other player, year after year. And LEADS us to 'glory', every time. Really?

The reasons he was signed to that large contract has also been done to death on this forum. It's in the past, and the past cannot be changed.

So - DCE either has to be the best player in the game every year, or - his salary is the reason that we're not winners - all the time. Because DCE is obviously selfish, then, isn't he? We would have a team of superstars across the park if it wasn't for ..........him. And we can't relate to him - because he's well spoken....and from QLD.....and the QLD captain too.....and he's well spoken....did I say he was from QLD?

Do I hope that his 'new' contract is less than his old one? Yes.
Do I wish that he wouldn't race out of the line in defence? Yes.
Is his one on one defense as good as it was 5 years ago? Probably not. Close, but no cigar.
Do all fans everywhere relate to him? No. Do they have to?
Do opposition fans (and commentators / journalists) dislike him? Of course - he's the captain of Manly. Aren't we used to it by now?
Do I believe he gives his all in each game, and LEADS by example? Yes.
Is he more talented/driven/ has game vision than most halfbacks? Seems to be - you don't win a SOO series against Nathan Cleary as your opposite if you're a passenger.
Do I think that he can contribute a lot to our club after he retires? Absolutely - unless he is addicted to reading this particular forum.
Is he perfect? No. No-one is. Are you?
Do I wish that Manly supporters were more united and would stop rubbishing our own captain? Yes.

Discussion is ok - and healthy. The 'absolutes' that are thrown up here: 'he's rubbish', 'he's this'. 'he's that' - are unbalanced and untrue. If you're thinking in 'absolutes' - then it's you that is in a bad space. Take a break and find your happy place.
Agree.

People forget he wanted to sign for 750-800k but the club went with Foran who left anyone.

He did not demand his current deal to begin with.

The club ****ed that up and they are the ones end of the day who recruit and put the salaries together.

Im sure if you asked DCE if you could take a 200k pay cut if it guaranteed GF victories ( as people seem to think because he is slightly over paid this is the reason we have not been successful - not that we haven't had the cattle, or ridiculous amount of injuries, coached by Barrett, in house fighting, more CEOs than any other side and no real stand out recruitment or young talented players stepping up at NRL level)
 
A

Agree.

People forget he wanted to sign for 750-800k but the club went with Foran who left anyone.

He did not demand his current deal to begin with.

The club ****ed that up and they are the ones end of the day who recruit and put the salaries together.

Im sure if you asked DCE if you could take a 200k pay cut if it guaranteed GF victories ( as people seem to think because he is slightly over paid this is the reason we have not been successful - not that we haven't had the cattle, or ridiculous amount of injuries, coached by Barrett, in house fighting, more CEOs than any other side and no real stand out recruitment or young talented players stepping up at NRL level)
Well he could have signed at 800k if he wanted with no long delay.
 
I'm not really Mal Cochrane...
Ffs, back to talking about it not being DCE'S fault for the money he is on.

As has been explained enought times by now, any player can accept any offer they are given... it's about the value he offers for that money.
 
Grizzly old fart
Mate your saying the same thing over and over. Maybe if you say it another 1000 times you’ll believe it. Lol
And no I said he hasn’t won Dally M Player of the year- BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE, lol Not just his position. Soooo that’s actually you skewing the facts to support your weak arguments.

Dally M PLAYER of the year-
2022- Nicko Hynes
2021- Tommy T
2020- Jack Wighton
2019- Tedesco
2018- Roger t Sheck
2017- cam smith
2016- Jason Tualmalolo and Cronk
2015- Thurston
2014- j Hayne and Thurston
2013- Cronk
2012- B Barba
2011- billy Slater

No D$E in there mate.


Hozza have a looked back at what was written. It was about winners of the Dally M best half back award, not the Dally M award. You even referred to it. Its obvious you dont like the player and that's your right. But liking and assessing their performances are two different things. What you seem to be doing is understating what DCE does well and overstating what he does poorly. Be honest about it. Your arguments offer no backing other than how you observe. Please back that up with factual information and then I'll take notice. I've tried to do that but you seem to ignore it.

Hozza, I could comment about any player on the field and put them down. I could have done that with Foran, when it was obvious Schuster was being denied the 5/8 spot. Not hard to knock Foran given his past. But I have throughout acknowledged that Foran has done a top job. I could have decided to put him down because I might have wanted Schuster there, but I didnt on purpose. I stepped back and looked at Foran's efforts as dispassionately as I could, even many times giving him 1, 2 or 3 as best player in a game. But then I was trained not to allow emotion to cloud my perspective. And I also believe we should never malign others, in this case footballers who have worked damned hard to get where they are. Who are we to judge them. We're little people. Respect.
 
Bencher
Hozza have a looked back at what was written. It was about winners of the Dally M best half back award, not the Dally M award. You even referred to it. Its obvious you dont like the player and that's your right. But liking and assessing their performances are two different things. What you seem to be doing is understating what DCE does well and overstating what he does poorly. Be honest about it. Your arguments offer no backing other than how you observe. Please back that up with factual information and then I'll take notice. I've tried to do that but you seem to ignore it.

Hozza, I could comment about any player on the field and put them down. I could have done that with Foran, when it was obvious Schuster was being denied the 5/8 spot. Not hard to knock Foran given his past. But I have throughout acknowledged that Foran has done a top job. I could have decided to put him down because I might have wanted Schuster there, but I didnt on purpose. I stepped back and looked at Foran's efforts as dispassionately as I could, even many times giving him 1, 2 or 3 as best player in a game. But then I was trained not to allow emotion to cloud my perspective. And I also believe we should never malign others, in this case footballers who have worked damned hard to get where they are. Who are we to judge them. We're little people. Respect.
Bear you’ve given zero stats or facts that I didn’t already know mate, you’ve definitely failed in backing up your argument. Being a novelist, a parole officer, union rep doesn’t give you more insight than others into looking at a player or looking at statistics (evidence? it’s footy) for that matter. I mean why else state what you do, except to impose on people in here that you can interpret stats better? Lol, But thanks for your CV, 😉

As you’ve said we are only little people. And both our opposing opinions means little. But it is a forum for people to discuss, praise and judge players. Place wouldn’t exist if we didn’t. And it would be extremely boring if we all agreed on everything.

So back to that bet mate?
 
Team P W L PD Pts
24 20 4 306 42
24 18 6 209 38
24 17 7 272 36
24 16 8 119 34
24 15 9 247 32
24 15 9 201 32
24 14 10 130 30
24 14 10 63 30
24 13 11 -36 28
24 12 12 -100 26
24 9 15 -105 20
24 7 17 -192 16
24 6 18 -205 14
24 6 18 -290 14
24 6 18 -292 14
24 4 20 -327 10
Top Bottom