The Bush fires ....and floods

[robbiea]

Unfortunately in this day and age ,EVERYTHING comes down to the mighty dollar.We are ruled by greed and will die by greed.I think we could save the world (climate,hunger,wars)if world leaders ,and the world bank were seeing financial gain ,but sadly as a race fuelled by greed ,that is not the case and we will be lost to greed.
Get that doom and gloom into ya !

 

[manly al]

So what you are sayin is let’s put this in the too hard basket! Let it burn, f$&k the RFS. Let people houses burn, their farms their animals, wait until the fires burn out leave it to the very last moment to protect infrastructure like the snowy mountains hydro that provides power for Nsw and vic.

A lot more should have been done weeks ago particularly fire bombing aircraft.

Think that you make a valid point there Tragic in that there seems to have been more of a reactive approach then a preventative proactive approach by federal authorities especially when the approaches by some of the State "s fire chiefs [ and i am sure that their motivations where not political inclined ] for some more serious contingency measures were largely ignored some time ago by the federal government . Especially in regard to water bombing aircraft . It was quite apparent in some areas just over 12 months ago in some parts of Queensland where similar unprecedented conditions existed and that the water bombers were responsible for saving whole communities and before the really serious fires were able to form into even more destructive fire storm type events . Not that difficult to attach fire fighting water tanks to fix winged aircraft and even larger type helicopters . especially from the A D F and that is definitely in the federal jurisdiction . Sure they can not be everywhere at once where the fire threat is but if there were more that were available , would have to think that they would have helped no end .

 

[Jethro]

Sorry. Should have specified. Has nothing to do with the constitution but rather budgetary. The Federal Government is responsible for providing the aerial firefighting fleet.

Unless things have changed since the 2016 bushfires in Tasmania, I think you will find that the States and Territories are responsible for providing aerial firefighting resources as it was them who formed the National Aerial Firefighting Centre in 2003.

From:

Chapter 4

Financial, human and mechanical resources 4.1 This chapter examines the financial, human and mechanical resources that were available and provided in response to the 2016 bushfires in the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area (TWWHA).

www.aph.gov.au

National Aerial Firefighting Centre

4.5 In 2003, the states and territories formed the National Aerial Firefighting Centre (NAFC) to provide a national arrangement for the provision of aerial firefighting resources. One of its roles is to coordinate the leasing of a national fleet of highly specialised firefighting aircraft, which are made available to fire agencies to supplement the fleets leased or owned by individual jurisdictions. The NAFC explained:

One of the main benefits of these national arrangements is the ability of states and territories to access increased capacity, or "surge" capacity, for aerial fire suppression at times of peak bushfire activity. It is not practical, sensible or cost-effective for each individual state and territory to maintain the necessary specialised resources for all situations.

4.6 The NAFC is jointly funded by the Australian, state and territory governments. The fixed (standing) costs of the leased national fleet are largely met by the states and territories, with the Australian Government making an annual contribution of $14.8 million toward this cost. The operational costs are met by the state and territories that utilise the contracted aircraft for bushfire suppression.

Also to note from that above referenced link:

Available firefighting resources

4.2 In Australia, state and territory governments are primarily responsible for protecting life, property and environment within their jurisdiction. This includes responding to bushfires. Tasmania's emergency management arrangements comprise a mix of state and regional planning (for example, the Tasmanian Emergency Management Plan), as well as interagency arrangements.

4.3 The states and territories also have inter-jurisdictional arrangements. In addition to bilateral agreements, Arrangements for Interstate Assistance (AIA) enables the timely and meaningful exchange of capabilities during significant incidents (fire services, emergency services and land management agencies). The AIA is the primary arrangement for mutual assistance in emergency management activities conducted by Australian and New Zealand agencies.

4.4 The Australian Government provides assistance only when a state or territory decides that its resources will not be able to effectively manage an incident. A formal request for assistance can be made to Emergency Management Australia (EMA), a division within the Attorney-General's Department (AGD), to activate the Australian Government Disaster Response Plan (COMDISPLAN).

 

[Jethro]

Unless things have changed since the 2016 bushfires in Tasmania, I think you will find that the States and Territories are responsible for providing aerial firefighting resources as it was them who formed the National Aerial Firefighting Centre in 2003.

From:

Chapter 4

Financial, human and mechanical resources 4.1 This chapter examines the financial, human and mechanical resources that were available and provided in response to the 2016 bushfires in the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area (TWWHA).

www.aph.gov.au

National Aerial Firefighting Centre

4.5 In 2003, the states and territories formed the National Aerial Firefighting Centre (NAFC) to provide a national arrangement for the provision of aerial firefighting resources. One of its roles is to coordinate the leasing of a national fleet of highly specialised firefighting aircraft, which are made available to fire agencies to supplement the fleets leased or owned by individual jurisdictions. The NAFC explained:

One of the main benefits of these national arrangements is the ability of states and territories to access increased capacity, or "surge" capacity, for aerial fire suppression at times of peak bushfire activity. It is not practical, sensible or cost-effective for each individual state and territory to maintain the necessary specialised resources for all situations.

4.6 The NAFC is jointly funded by the Australian, state and territory governments. The fixed (standing) costs of the leased national fleet are largely met by the states and territories, with the Australian Government making an annual contribution of $14.8 million toward this cost. The operational costs are met by the state and territories that utilise the contracted aircraft for bushfire suppression.

Also to note from that above referenced link:

Available firefighting resources

4.2 In Australia, state and territory governments are primarily responsible for protecting life, property and environment within their jurisdiction. This includes responding to bushfires. Tasmania's emergency management arrangements comprise a mix of state and regional planning (for example, the Tasmanian Emergency Management Plan), as well as interagency arrangements.

4.3 The states and territories also have inter-jurisdictional arrangements. In addition to bilateral agreements, Arrangements for Interstate Assistance (AIA) enables the timely and meaningful exchange of capabilities during significant incidents (fire services, emergency services and land management agencies). The AIA is the primary arrangement for mutual assistance in emergency management activities conducted by Australian and New Zealand agencies.

4.4 The Australian Government provides assistance only when a state or territory decides that its resources will not be able to effectively manage an incident. A formal request for assistance can be made to Emergency Management Australia (EMA), a division within the Attorney-General's Department (AGD), to activate the Australian Government Disaster Response Plan (COMDISPLAN).

Further to my above comment, here is the link to the National Aerial Firefighting Centre website:

NAFC

www.nafc.org.au

and the Wiki link:

National Aerial Firefighting Centre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Woodsie]

This is a national tragedy, whichever team you cheer for. So just back off your snippy sniping about responsibility. You're all driving me nuts!

Thanks for saying that .... c'mon people ... let's leave the political witch hunt .... this is a time for coming together .... let the facts come out in the review ,,,

 

[winnyason]

Left, right let's drop the witch hunt. He ****ed up big time, who can deal with an environmental disaster to this scale ?
Getting rid of coal instantly not the answer given there not the infrastructure from large scale solar farmsfor energy in this country.

 

[Woodsie]

I don’t care whose fault it is I and others want the decision makers to make decisions and provide the RFS who are doing a sensational job with the resources they require! ...

Understand you are upset .. we all are .... but my mates in the RFS say they have all the funding and resources they need (their branch anyway) ...to fight the number of fires and the sheer size of them would require hundreds of thousands of trucks, planes and helicopters and millions of men ... it would be impossible to have that sort of equipment on stand by ....normally fires in one location can be bolstered by crews from else where ... this time .... fires are everywhere at once ...

 

[Jethro]

I doubt Hawke or Howard would have sat in their arse. They were both leaders they cared for the Australian people. They would have acted a lot lot quicker.

The RFS has been badly let down!

If they have been let down, it has apparently been by the NSW Government for not asking for help from their Federal counterparts a lot earlier.

Here are some excerpts from:

Chapter 4

Financial, human and mechanical resources 4.1 This chapter examines the financial, human and mechanical resources that were available and provided in response to the 2016 bushfires in the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area (TWWHA).

www.aph.gov.au

Available firefighting resources

4.2 In Australia, state and territory governments are primarily responsible for protecting life, property and environment within their jurisdiction. This includes responding to bushfires.[1]

4.3 The states and territories also have inter-jurisdictional arrangements. In addition to bilateral agreements, Arrangements for Interstate Assistance (AIA) enables the timely and meaningful exchange of capabilities during significant incidents (fire services, emergency services and land management agencies). The AIA is the primary arrangement for mutual assistance in emergency management activities conducted by Australian and New Zealand agencies.[3]

4.4 The Australian Government provides assistance only when a state or territory decides that its resources will not be able to effectively manage an incident. A formal request for assistance can be made to Emergency Management Australia (EMA), a division within the Attorney-General's Department (AGD), to activate the Australian Government Disaster Response Plan (COMDISPLAN).[4]

 

[manly al]

So this current fire tragedy and disaster does not constitute a national level type disaster ? Don "t think that most people give a Rats who or which level of government is providing the right and necessary amount of support and fire fighting capability , as long as everything was coordinated and available to ensure maximum effectiveness . These state fire chiefs were not some hillbilly fire wardens but respected and highly reputable public figures but yet their requests for a national commitment and effort to contend with these clearly forecasted fire events was simply ignored and overlooked . Of course more could have been done in preparation and resource management . Only have to look at the largely shambolic and piecemeal response by Federal authorities in recent days . One state fire chief was not even informed prior to the announced deployment of some 3 thousand A D F troops today , How was that in the best interests of integrated and effective fire control management and that is just one example .

 

[eagle40]

 

[ManlyTragic]

Understand you are upset .. we all are .... but my mates in the RFS say they have all the funding and resources they need (their branch anyway) ...to fight the number of fires and the sheer size of them would require hundreds of thousands of trucks, planes and helicopters and millions of men ... it would be impossible to have that sort of equipment on stand by ....normally fires in one location can be bolstered by crews from else where ... this time .... fires are everywhere at once ...

What your mates are saying and what is QUOTED in the media is very very different!

 

[ManlyTragic]

Morrison has finally admitted he fu$@ed up ..... tad late now buddy

 

[Jethro]

Morrison has finally admitted he fu$@ed up ..... tad late now buddy

What did he say?

 

[yokahontas]

So this current fire tragedy and disaster does not constitute a national level type disaster ? Don "t think that most people give a Rats who or which level of government is providing the right and necessary amount of support and fire fighting capability , as long as everything was coordinated and available to ensure maximum effectiveness . These state fire chiefs were not some hillbilly fire wardens but respected and highly reputable public figures but yet their requests for a national commitment and effort to contend with these clearly forecasted fire events was simply ignored and overlooked . Of course more could have been done in preparation and resource management . Only have to look at the largely shambolic and piecemeal response by Federal authorities in recent days . One state fire chief was not even informed prior to the announced deployment of some 3 thousand A D F troops today , How was that in the best interests of integrated and effective fire control management and that is just one example .

Those 3000 troops will have very little to do with fire control - it’s not their bag. They’ll be a big part of the cleanup and recovery efforts, but basically the firies have to go in and do their thing, other agencies come in around or behind them to assist, but they’d be more of a hindrance than anything else if they tried to get involved in actual firefighting.

Couple of screenshots attached to give you an idea of what role the ADF has already been playing, and will continue to do (5 Bde is the formation I referred to earlier, I have been well aware for weeks that 4/3 RNSWR and their fellow 5 Bde units have been involved all over the place since the north coast copped it). Just as an aside - for all the hype, the ARes callout is essentially a funding & contracting issue more than anything. Plenty of reservists have already been using their allocated training days to assist, now they’ll get put on a continuous full time service contract instead.

 

[yokahontas]

BTW, they’ve picked a good ‘un to head up the ADF contribution. I worked for Jake Ellwood in my last Defence gig a few years back, before he was promoted. Brilliant, very switched on leader, but also a kind and compassionate human.

 

[eaglebuzz]

So what you are sayin is let’s put this in the too hard basket! Let it burn, f$&k the RFS. Let people houses burn, their farms their animals, wait until the fires burn out leave it to the very last moment to protect infrastructure like the snowy mountains hydro that provides power for Nsw and vic.

A lot more should have been done weeks ago particularly fire bombing aircraft.

If you think fire bombing aircraft had any hope of putting these fires out you just don't understand the sheer scale of these things. Sure maybe 3 million bombing aircraft might have had a hope but let's get real here.

 

[HappilyManly]

This woman Celeste barber (@celestebarber_) | Twitter has already raised 30+ million for the RFS Trust

https://m.facebook.com/nt/screen/?p..._id":1010958179269977}&path=/fundraiser/&_rdr

 

[manly al]

Those 3000 troops will have very little to do with fire control - it’s not their bag. They’ll be a big part of the cleanup and recovery efforts, but basically the firies have to go in and do their thing, other agencies come in around or behind them to assist, but they’d be more of a hindrance than anything else if they tried to get involved in actual firefighting.

Couple of screenshots attached to give you an idea of what role the ADF has already been playing, and will continue to do (5 Bde is the formation I referred to earlier, I have been well aware for weeks that 4/3 RNSWR and their fellow 5 Bde units have been involved all over the place since the north coast copped it). Just as an aside - for all the hype, the ARes callout is essentially a funding & contracting issue more than anything. Plenty of reservists have already been using their allocated training days to assist, now they’ll get put on a continuous full time service contract instead.

Certainly was not implying that any A D F personal should be directly engaged in fighting or suppressing the fires , just to contend that any increased presence by them in any support role should have been facilitated or enacted or planned quite some time ago .and there are a very wide range of useful and helpful activities that has already been reported on within their scope . Also certainly can acknowledge your usual comprehensive and interesting comments on the forum but i was again in this instance just reinforcing not only the perception but reality that these measures should have been contemplated and bought into effect as soon as the fire threat was imminent quite some time ago . .

 

[manly al]

If you think fire bombing aircraft had any hope of putting these fires out you just don't understand the sheer scale of these things. Sure maybe 3 million bombing aircraft might have had a hope but let's get real here.

Don"t think that anyone is claiming that more water bombing would have controlled all of the fire fronts but if there were more available and used strategically of course they would have improved the situation . Belatedly the federal authorities or government as one of their recent knee jerk responses apparently are trying to organize a further four water bombers [ but more could or should have been made available a long time ago ] . Even they again belatedly have publicly recognized their effectiveness and damage control capability . Only have to refer to some of the areas and communities in various parts of Queensland just over 12 months ago [ admittedly not again on the scale of the present fire event ] where water bombers was the difference between complete devastation or their property , animals and even human life saved and preserved .

 

[Budgie]

If you think fire bombing aircraft had any hope of putting these fires out you just don't understand the sheer scale of these things. Sure maybe 3 million bombing aircraft might have had a hope but let's get real here.

My understanding of the point all those fire chiefs were making was that we should have had them ready to go from the moment this all began to stop the spread rather than just put them out. But what would I know.