Short Term Thinking for Long Term Goals

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Bearfax

Grizzly old fart
Having watched Manly for over 50 years I've seen the ups and downs and have always had hope things would improve after the lows. I am not so confident at present.

What I am seeing at Manly is firstly an excellent recruitment strategy at the juniors level, getting a number of classy young players to the Sea Eagles, and increasing the range of potential top first graders, instead of paying out big money for mediocre middle range players. And they have come through consistently in recent years with Manly's juniors being among the best on show.

But then I look at the selection policy at the seniors level and I see inertia. Its been happening for much of the past seven or eight years. I was hopeful that Des would revitalise the side, but he is acting like Barrett, resisting change, resisting promotion of potential young stars except where necessity forces it. I get the sense with Des that he is scared to take reasonable risks, and is living on his previous fame, too scared to be innovative, when that is what made him such a fine coach.

I look at the Storm, Roosters and now the Panthers and Knights. None of them would risk losing a top junior or one of the best in their side. They would find ways of keeping them. And they would get them quickly into first grade. They wouldn't be looking for broken down old soldiers to solve their problems.

The loss of AFB to me was a sign of disharmony. Probably the best prop in the game and we let him go. Then there's young Hopoate, who could be a star in a few years. Probably headed for the Dogs. And now Foran being invited back when we have one of the most exciting juniors in Schuster ready for first grade. And why. Because of certain people's sentiment/friendship, thoughts of past glories, and when he can stay on the field which is not often, he can still do some clever things. This is not business like thinking. Imagine when Fred Jones was playing and Krillich was being given rep duties from reserve grade. If we had persisted with Jones and allowed Krillich to go elsewhere, there would have been an outcry. This decision makes the Gutherson travesty look like kids stuff.

For me Des is stuck in his past glories and fearful of change. He's trying to think short term when the club needs a long policy. And this is about keeping your best juniors. This is not about 2021. This is about the next 5-10 years. If Manly loses Schuster, the best young junior I've seen in over a decade, I'm sorry but I wont be continuing to support the club, while such thinking is just driving the nail into Manly's already faltering existence.
 
I look at the Storm, Roosters and now the Panthers and Knights. None of them would risk losing a top junior or one of the best in their side. They would find ways of keeping them. And they would get them quickly into first grade
The top clubs would never stoop to beg a star junior to stay. They would promote them when they thought the time was right, and in the process the junior would learn the value of earning your spot and being part of a team. I understand you don't want Schuster to depart but I think you are losing sight of the bigger picture.
Just my view, carry on!
 
hopefully its all BS... if its true then we cant lose him for Foran no way. This whole playing foran at 9 is ridiculous, sure he could do it but having to defend in the middle like that and the speed of the game.. yeah nah.
If he is a 30 min rotation hooker he won't have to tackle for 80 mins. I can see it working if he is in a shared hooking role
 
If he is a 30 min rotation hooker he won't have to tackle for 80 mins. I can see it working if he is in a shared hooking role
Rotation with whom? If he played as a hooker he would make a great back up for our halves and at the same time he could mentor Schuster and help some of the younger kids like parker and jetski alluded to the other day.. interesting to see qhat our mad scientist is cooking up isnt it haha.. not many hooker options out there at the moment. Two birds i guess
 
IMO IF they decide to sign Foran as a hooker he'd be lucky to last 2 games. The guy has a long history of injury and to think he's even on our radar is absolutely ridiculous but also jeopardising losing our young guns.

What I've seen in the last few years or more is Manly signing the best young talent and bring them through our system only to lose them to rival clubs.
 
The top clubs would never stoop to beg a star junior to stay. They would promote them when they thought the time was right, and in the process the junior would learn the value of earning your spot and being part of a team. I understand you don't want Schuster to depart but I think you are losing sight of the bigger picture.
Just my view, carry on!


What is the bigger picture? Actually that is what I'm alluding to. I get a sense there is no big picture, only short term band aid remedies. Lets assume Manly bring in Foran. Schuster could very well want out, and if so Manly is unlikely to force the issue. Now Foran plays and there is a better than 50 50 chance he'll succumb to injury yet again. Manly will be stuck because it will be most likely a pre existing injury...I mean he has several. We're then stuck paying for someone, like Brett Stewart and Matai or even Fainu, sitting on the side line who the Sea Eagles paying for, for no return. If Schuster is gone, then who plays 5/8. Cust? Croker? Walker? Lets be honest none of those players have the skill of Schuster, and we've again lost a star we could have used. So what is the big picture?
 
Rotation with whom? If he played as a hooker he would make a great back up for our halves and at the same time he could mentor Schuster and help some of the younger kids like parker and jetski alluded to the other day.. interesting to see qhat our mad scientist is cooking up isnt it haha.. not many hooker options out there at the moment. Two birds i guess
fainu when he is back, and cust while we are waiting. The trick would be not to have Foran out there for 80 mins so we get some benefit from him before he breaks down
 
I get sick of reading that Des won’t give young players a go

He has been back 2 years, in those 2 years Funa, Fainu, Suli, Garrick, Waddell, Keppie, Cust, Paseka etc have all had extended runs in the side
Thats true but its more the end of this year when he persisted with under performing players.. taking so long to debut Schuster was criminal. Not playing guacamole the same! Its a good point you make no doubt. Except for suli and fainu they were already in the team
 
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I get sick of reading that Des won’t give young players a go

He has been back 2 years, in those 2 years Funa, Fainu, Suli, Garrick, Waddell, Keppie, Cust, Paseka etc have all had extended runs in the side
I may be wrong but I think most of the players you mentioned came into First Grade prior to DESpicable's arrival.
My beef is that he only gives young players a chance when injury forces him to, not because he truly believes in their ability.
 
When to sign and play young blokes is always a challenge ... it is a balance between developing potential .. and winning today ... you can't always be looking 2 years down the track ... you also need to build a squad that will win this year ...

Concentrate too much on having development players, or too much on keeping older reliable performers ... and you will always be betwixt and between .... and like the Bear ... I am not convinced we have the right handle on it at the moment ... but we do have a lot of youth ... I do think we need a couple of hard head seniors ...

And @Bearfax .... you also need to take into consideration in your ponderings, the very different attitude with the me me generation .... long gone are the days when a player like Max would be prepared to play a couple of seasons in reggies waiting for his time when Freddy retired ... today these kids have family, friends and managers who want their payday NOW ... and I suggest some of these young blokes make rational policy very difficult to achieve .......

Well may a club have a very reasonable and sensible plan for a young star ... only to come completely unstuck by the demands of a manager and player ...
 
My concern is what Peter Peters is not saying. He's pointing out certain concerns, but I think there is more going on here than we know, and I suspect it ain't good. I know many on this site thought Peters was a wood worm. I didn't think he was the real problem. And I also don't think the Fultons are the problem. But I get a sense there is something not right in the club that has been struggling now for six years with no real sign of improvement.
 
PSS ... My biggest concern is the non playing of Schuster and Guacamole ... both players in my opinion would have benefitted a lot from more game time this year ... can't think of one good reason why they didn't ...

And yet ... as with Hoppa, Dessie was right on the money ...
 
When to sign and play young blokes is always a challenge ... it is a balance between developing potential .. and winning today ... you can't always be looking 2 years down the track ... you also need to build a squad that will win this year ...

Concentrate too much on having development players, or too much on keeping older reliable performers ... and you will always be betwixt and between .... and like the Bear ... I am not convinced we have the right handle on it at the moment ... but we do have a lot of youth ... I do think we need a couple of hard head seniors ...

And @Bearfax .... you also need to take into consideration in your ponderings, the very different attitude with the me me generation .... long gone are the days when a player like Max would be prepared to play a couple of seasons in reggies waiting for his time when Freddy retired ... today these kids have family, friends and managers who want their payday NOW ... and I suggest some of these young blokes make rational policy very difficult to achieve .......

Well may a club have a very reasonable and sensible plan for a young star ... only to come completely unstuck by the demands of a manager and player ...

In a sense you are right Woodsie. Things change. But in the case of Schuster, he could easily be now playing for another club and staring. He was ready as we could see in his first game. He's stuck at Manly because he's thought he was...excuse the expression...a shoe in for the 5/8 spot. Then he's undercut but the potential of Foran returning...and for how long? The way I see it its not Schuster who's to blame, its the club if they sign Foran. The kid is getting apparently much less money than he could get elsewhere. He stayed and has patiently waited all year in the top squad for his chance. You imply Krillich would have stayed if Manly had continued to keep Jones after 1972. I doubt he would have stayed. It has always also been about money. That's why Manly were able to secure, Brannigan, O'Neill, Ray Brown, Dorahy, Irvine, Boyd, Reilly etc etc. Money and opportunity may be slightly different now, but not by as much as you may think
 
Thing is why risk it.
That’s probably not my point mate , my point is I think it’s probably all bull****, someone on some InstaTwitFace feed or forum has said it and some journo ran with it.

And I think we should all calm down a bit and see what transpires before we all slit our wrists.
 
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Agreed, this "Foran coming Schuster leaving" thing came up a day ago from a single source - Danny Weidler.

Since then this place has gone ballistic, purely on speculation generated by the above - again, from a single source, namely Danny Weidler.

The only players we've "lost" in recent years are Green (who spat the dummy when we refused to grant him an early release so he could take up a longer contract at the Warriors) & AFB (who claimed to want to move his family away from Sydney yet his own wife said she knew nothing about it, & coincidentally received a longer contract at the Warriors).

Gutherson was let go based on data available at the time & the fact that Turbo is a fullback, Api similarly, was let go based on the fact we intended to make Fainu our starting 9 with Croker as our 14.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but no one could have foretold Turbo's terrible run with injuries & Fainu being involved in a stabbing.

I'd rather wait until something more concrete comes out about both of these rumours before starting to worry they might be true.
 
The problem we have is the young players only need look at DCE and see how his threat to leave the club and the reward he got when the club caved in and did everything to turn his head back and re-sign with an outrageous contract.

A strong club would have said on your bike and we build a team. Foran and DCE in 15 were meant to be the future of the club after all our guns were either retiring or leaving. The club started this by mismanaging retention and recruitment in 14 and 15 and ever since we have been behind the 8 ball in trying to build a team and then hampered further by a salary cap penalty putting us further behind.

The club had success in Holden cup in the 15 and 17 seasons and success at junior level in the Harold Matthews and SG Ball cup and this should be the pathway for our young players to be developed into future first grade stars. Now I know that not all of these players will make it through and we need to have a better system that once these players finish in these grades that they are not sent to Blacktown where their training and development is not all done by our club.

2020 in a lot of ways has been a desparate season to watch especially after round 6 when we fell apart and never dealt with the injury toll and setbacks.

We had a lot of players available that were not used up to round 12 and we needed to blood more of them once it was obvious we were not making the finals.

The interest in Foran is understandable due to his attributes and experience. I understand that Hasler is loyal to his players and that the hole we have at 5/8 needs to be filled. The idea of playing him at hooker is bizarre. His body is too fragile for that role and we really need to get off our asses and hire a player who can play at 9 without any fuss, our halves were smashed this season due to an ineffective number 9!!

The club has to ensure that Josh Schuster is given a chance next season at 5/8 and let him learn his trade like Foran did a decade ago!!

We cannot afford to keep losing quality juniors like Sam Verrils and Fed Lussick to clubs like the Rorters especially with the deficit we have at number 9 at the moment.

Squandering young players to accommodate a coaches favourites is going to be a sugar hit but will damage us long term!!
 
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4 3 1 28 6
3 2 1 10 6
4 2 2 39 4
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3 2 1 15 4
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2 1 1 13 4
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3 2 1 -3 4
3 1 2 0 2
3 1 2 -5 2
3 1 2 -15 2
3 1 2 -22 2
3 1 2 -36 2
2 0 2 -56 2
3 0 3 -64 0
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