[Resurrected] Big news over here: (Manu Vatuvei)

[Snake]

Really?
So you think the impact has been minimised by the harsh penalties that have been imposed over the past few decades?
I beg to differ.

I don't claim to know everything and I'm not that worked up about it to (a) analyse it too deeply or (b) get into an argument about it, but I hazard a guess that if one could earn millions of dollars a year to simply turn up on a street corner and hand someone a bag, they'd jump at the opportunity....however, when one learns that you could get life in prison if you're caught handing that bag over, one might think twice about doing it...

Do I think it will eradicate the drug problem? Of course not, but I reckon it's a better strategy than not doing anything at all.

 

[Snake]

No tolerance has never ever ever ever worked, in fact in many "Zero tolerance" policies it has shoes to have adverse effects. Punishment should fit the crime, that he could be locked up pretty much for life, whilst we have one of the skaf brothers walking free today is a crime in and of itself

I'm certainly all for the Skaf brothers getting life, but if you had a family member die at the needle, you might think twice about assuming that a drug dealer receiving 'life' is a punishment that does not match the crime. Drugs kill 1000s and the people that supply them have blood on their hands. So many murders and break and enters are down to drug money as well. As I said earlier, it's a large net of collateral destruction...

 

[Kaufusi's Elbow]

Great post @Snake I have been thinking about this one ... it's absolute BS to think no one is harmed by cocaine use.

The true cost of cocaine

According to the United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime, Australians are now the world’s eighth highest per capita users of cocaine. Cocaine use within the wealthier echelons of society is so unremarkable…

theconversation.com

 

[wombatgc]

Great post @Snake I have been thinking about this one ... it's absolute BS to think no one is harmed by cocaine use.

The true cost of cocaine

According to the United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime, Australians are now the world’s eighth highest per capita users of cocaine. Cocaine use within the wealthier echelons of society is so unremarkable…

theconversation.com

We’ve made the top eight twice in one season.

 

[HK_Eagle]

I'm certainly all for the Skaf brothers getting life, but if you had a family member die at the needle, you might think twice about assuming that a drug dealer receiving 'life' is a punishment that does not match the crime. Drugs kill 1000s and the people that supply them have blood on their hands. So many murders and break and enters are down to drug money as well. As I said earlier, it's a large net of collateral destruction...

Drugs do not kill people. People kill themselves through the choices they make in response to their pain and challenges. Society kills them through the systems they set up that contribute to their sense of detachment and isolation or the standards of what it means to matter in this world. Let's stop demonising the drugs and focus on us, as humans. We happily chug gazillions of gallons of alcohol as a cultural sport with very little question. We happily bathe ourselves in negative attitudes, limiting beliefs and self-righteous judgement that are arguably far more damaging to our communities... We are human and deal with challenges. I think we get further when we take responsibility for our own choices and stop blaming others.

 

[manlyfan76]

I'm certainly all for the Skaf brothers getting life, but if you had a family member die at the needle, you might think twice about assuming that a drug dealer receiving 'life' is a punishment that does not match the crime. Drugs kill 1000s and the people that supply them have blood on their hands. So many murders and break and enters are down to drug money as well. As I said earlier, it's a large net of collateral destruction...

So you're against alcohol because of the lives it takes

Something like 60% of pedestrian hit my motor vehicles have alcohol in them which is never spoken to

 

[Snake]

Drugs do not kill people. People kill themselves through the choices they make in response to their pain and challenges. Society kills them through the systems they set up that contribute to their sense of detachment and isolation or the standards of what it means to matter in this world. Let's stop demonising the drugs and focus on us, as humans. We happily chug gazillions of gallons of alcohol as a cultural sport with very little question. We happily bathe ourselves in negative attitudes, limiting beliefs and self-righteous judgement that are arguably far more damaging to our communities... We are human and deal with challenges. I think we get further when we take responsibility for our own choices and stop blaming others.

How many mass shootings have we had in Australia since gun laws were changed after Port Arthur? Yet, one could say guns don't kill people, people kill people...it's the same argument you are attempting to make and it doesn't wash. Sure, people make choices, but dealing drugs is simply another choice...further, in one breath you are advocating for us taking responsibility for our own choices, in another you are saying that society kills us through systems?!

No matter which way you spin it, a person pedalling drugs about the place is playing a major role in some pretty major destruction....right down to the kids who have to try and sleep at night after their home has been burgled earlier in the day by a desperate drug fiend. The innocent civilian accidentally shot in the line of fire during a turf war. The kid that is not smart enough to know what they're taking and so ODs. If you think reducing the culpability of dealers on the basis that humans make choices, you are ignoring the choice these dealers make in playing their role.

 

[Snake]

So you're against alcohol because of the lives it takes

Something like 60% of pedestrian hit my motor vehicles have alcohol in them which is never spoken to

Vatuvei pled guilty to dealing meth...I'd prefer we not have meth in society; he helps spread it round.

For some reason that's perplexing and has something to do with alcohol? OK.

 

[manlyfan76]

Vatuvei pled guilty to dealing meth...I'd prefer we not have meth in society; he helps spread it round.

For some reason that's perplexing and has something to do with alcohol? OK.

Narrow minded to think alcohol is not the gateway drug, and that alcohol is a lot more negative on society than meth.

 

[MissKate]

Pity for him he’s not playing for the storm right now, he would have only copped a 1 or 2 wk suspension for the crime

 

[Snake]

Narrow minded to think alcohol is not the gateway drug, and that alcohol is a lot more negative on society than meth.

I never argued otherwise...I never mentioned alcohol...you did. I don't have to be down with meth dealing to be narrow minded about alcohol?! I've no idea what you're on about.

 

[manlyfan76]

I never argued otherwise...I never mentioned alcohol...you did. I don't have to be down with meth dealing to be narrow minded about alcohol?! I've no idea what you're on about.

Point was can you be against ice but not alcohol if deaths and cost to society is the yardstick?

 

[ManlyTragic]

I don't claim to know everything and I'm not that worked up about it to (a) analyse it too deeply or (b) get into an argument about it, but I hazard a guess that if one could earn millions of dollars a year to simply turn up on a street corner and hand someone a bag, they'd jump at the opportunity....however, when one learns that you could get life in prison if you're caught handing that bag over, one might think twice about doing it...

Do I think it will eradicate the drug problem? Of course not, but I reckon it's a better strategy than not doing anything at all.

Agree!

It seems to work in Thailand!

 

[Snake]

Point was can you be against ice but not alcohol if deaths and cost to society is the yardstick?

But you haven't established my standing on alcohol? Personally, I don't drink. I'm completely sober. You've just made an assumption by bringing up alcohol when it was never part of the initial discussion...since you've raised it, yeah alcohol is a problem...but does or should that change how I feel about someone pedalling ice about the place?

You're arguing a point that I wasn't even referencing or discussing in the first place...it's like you've had a seperate conversation with me that I wasn't part of or didn't know about and somehow that made me narrow minded and ignorant...I feel sorry for me lol.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Agree!

It seems to work in Thailand!

You've got to be joking. Drugs and corruption are rife in Thailand.

 

[ManlyTragic]

You've got to be joking. Drugs and corruption are rife in Thailand.

What? And they are not here?

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

If you think reducing the culpability of dealers

No-one has suggested reducing the culpability of dealers (unless I missed it)

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

What? And they are not here?

You've lost me. This side-topic began when someone suggested Vatuvei should get life. Snake (I think) agred with that and you agreed with Snake and said that approach (ie draconian punishments) seems to be working in Thailand. Which it isn't. However maybe I missed what you were on about.

 

[ManlyTragic]

Yep I am with snake!
Some punishment works better than no punishment.
Just because the punishment does not deter 100% of the offenders doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.
I’m against drugs and drug dealers…. I’ve seen the damage they cause to people and their families. Drug dealers profit from ruining other people’s lives.
If he is found to be a drug dealer then life in jail is too lenient…. In my opinion!
Someone who deals drugs knows exactly what they are doing to people/ children’s lives

Just sayin’

 

[Snake]

No-one has suggested reducing the culpability of dealers (unless I missed it)

Dan insinuated that a life sentence for importing a commercial quantity of meth was harsh when compared to a sentence handed out to a Skaf brother...that inadvertently suggests that he believes the death and destruction caused by these imported drugs does not warrant such a harsh penalty, thus reducing the importer’s culpability...rendering them a mere player in the game.

Then KR Eagle said that people make choices to take these drugs and in doing so, again reduces the culpability of the importer in the wide net of destruction that results from these drugs being made available.

At the end of the day, I respect both opinions and can see what people are getting at...I’ve seen first hand what meth can do to people and I think regulating its supply or decriminalising it, is going to make the issue worse, rather than better. When something is legal, it’s a green light to get amongst it...next thing you know we’ve got a society full of meth addicts...no thanks...we already have a society addicted to alcohol!

Further, punishment doesn’t necessarily need to be judged entirely on its capacity to eradicate a problem. We put murders and rapists in jail and people still murder and rape?! Why is it different for people importing large quantities of drugs that destroy other peoples lives? We don’t decriminalise murder and rape on the basis that draconian punishments don’t appear to be stopping the crimes from occurring. We put them in jail because they deserve to be there, irrespective of whether the punishment will prevent further offending from others.