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Technical Opinion

Discussion in 'Rugby League Forum' started by Harmless27, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. Harmless27

    Harmless27 Active Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Tehcnical Coach - due to popular demand, I thought I would seek some of your priceless drivvel...!

    I watched the Parra game slightly bleary eyed on Saturday morning on premier Sports in London..... and I noticed a 'new'? variation on our left-hand-side play which resulted in Bretts try udner the sticks. It was a lovely ball off the hip by Foz, and an excellent line run by Brett.

    Do you feel that this was a structured variation to our normal LHS play which we have been running for the last 3-4 years, or was it simply a good run in the heat of battle?
     
  2. Technical Coach

    Technical Coach Well-Known Member

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    Basically the same play just tighter in and a little extra double pump ball playing added in, it was a structured play not in the heat of the battle play.(we have used variations with that same drifting wide decoy runner who is sometimes hit with an outball for a few years yes)

    I don't really like the out shuffle from Horo as it is not a believable running line just purely to open up a gap on a lazy read against a poor defence. This running line is usually reserved for out balls where the pass gets the player on the outside---very rare if at all you will see an out ball this tight infield while ballplaying at the line.

    Brett may have adjusted his run a little tighter noticing the gap but was always going to run a tighter line than the more spread out play on the left we have used in the past.

    I doubt this play would work as well against a good defensive structure but in the end it did the job on the day.

    I would like to see Brett hide himself on the blind side of Foran and then drift to the open side and straighten after a double pump or hold back pass---(Horo running the outside line and Brett drifting as if it is a second man play but straighten) (Think Cooper Cronk to Slater in the 2012 GF)

    This kind of play even in an unstructured in the moment off the cuff play was the platform and base Cliffy used with centres attacking the outside hip and Menzies lurking around---if the defence is drawn to the outside runner hit Menzies and if they defend off the inside hip hit the outside runner. Cliffy would also come from the open side around the back of the play the ball hitting the short side with a double pump and a hip runner drifting nearby(even coming from the short side and drifting to the open side.)
     
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  3. Harmless27

    Harmless27 Active Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Thank you TC - interesting stuff.

    Your mention of Cliffy putting Beaver into holes is a very interesting comparison.

    Again - I'm so far removed from being an 'expert' that its not funny - but you mentioned that Cliffy would come from the Open side to the Blind side during the play of the ball. Do you feel that Foran often plays his hand too early in committing to one side or the other (and thus giving the defensive line a better read on what to expect?) Or do you feel that our halves manage to 'keep them guessing' better than some of the other half combinations in the comp?

    Or - option 3 - it makes stuff all difference and I am simply trying too hard to impress? lol
     
  4. Mals

    Mals Well-Known Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Just my opinion but these quick open side to blind side runs rarely work these days unless the defence is also in disarray due to a line break. Defences are now much better organised & players know which channel they are defending (Parra excepted).
     
  5. Rodo

    Rodo Goldmember 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    So you think Cliffy wouldn't be as effective these days? He was a master at holding the defence up and putting a player through a gap. No one else could do it like him.
     
  6. Technical Coach

    Technical Coach Well-Known Member

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    I'm not suggesting we should use these plays or play like Cliffy just giving a nice look back to the past.

    Cliffy would struggle in the modern game defences are better structured and he lacked any real sharpness to take the line on. Cliffy's ball skills will still create holes but he would lack the time to orchestrate them and a little too slow in the same way as G.Stewart is not worrying the defence line due to a lack of speed.(Cliffy also struggled against the Doggies up and in defence at times in his career)

    Combine Cliffy and Foran into the one package now that would re-write the records for most ball playing try assists.

    I recall when Lyons made his comeback or around this period I think he started the season a month or two in and by the end of the regular season Cliffy had the same amount of try assists as A.Johns with less games and probably only playing 40-60mins on average.(considering 98% of Lyons assists were limited to ballplaying while Johns had a vast array of options just shows how effective Lyons ballplaying was)

    Even Warren Ryan commented on these stats stating "Manly fans know something others don't" or something along those lines.

    This year Manly have resorted to using more of the Doggies deeper second man plays allowing the halves more time while also playing more central.(and hiding themselves behind the line) The risk is we start to play too deep but the advantages are more time and seeing Foran play more central on both sides.

    DCE is not really comfortable at all this year and playing second fiddle, he just needs to show and go play straight with short options off each hip, he is not totally comfortable playing deep off a second man play.

    I really enjoyed the G.Rose interview on Sunday and how he admitted we are using the double block/ two decoy runner play the Roosters use on top of the video work in defence they have done on it. I'm not confident Manly have worked out how to defend against it I was not convinced with his reply did not seem confident to me.

    When Manly executes this play the decoys are way too close and they seem to be running in line with each other----it is more effective to have a lead runner and the other decoy a touch back.(watch the Storm execution of this play against the Raiders to see what I mean)

    Having one decoy a touch ahead allows the ballplayer to use him as a face ball decoy or a double pump, or conversely having the outer decoy in front you can hold the ball back for the inside block/decoy runner. Many times I just see two players running side by side and it limits it's effectiveness.

    What I find annoying with todays ball playing is the one eyed blinkered approach of running left passing left running right passing right. Ball players should always have an inside option and outside option when they take the line on. So often I see Foran burst left and you just know he is going to pass left and many times his right hip is devoid of runners and there are holes available.

    Manly still lack that simple power play up the middle that can break the shackles in a tight game(in the red zone), front rowers these days have to do more than just be go forward men. You will see in the last few years and more so over the next 3-4yrs of more tries through Front Rowers in the redzone getting one on one or between defenders off a shallow flat play especially after a clean quick play the ball.

    I don't rate Souths attacking structures but if the game is in a grind they have the ability to score this way along with the Roosters, Dogs and a few others. Manly very rarely score tries up the middle and it is one area we need to address this year and coming years.
     
  7. Harmless27

    Harmless27 Active Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Very interesting insights technical coach.

    3 more questions - I hope you don't mind me monopolising your time! (that WASN'T a question G.E.)
    1. Why don't we have a regular TC column on the website (similar to a Good/Bad/Ugly report?). I think it would be extremely interesting to get a technical breakdown of our games. I lvoe the sinsghts into effort and 'the landcruiser' etc..... it brings tremendous value to the forum. A technical assesment of a game - or perhaps technical ratings on our players would be extremely interesting as well

    2. TC - I read Phil Gould's artical where he rated the top 4 in various things as we approach the finals. how do you feel Manly are going with regards to a finals assault. Who are you tipping? What will decide the comp?

    3. Who is the 1 player that makes the biggest difference to Manly, Souths, Roosters, Storm and the dogs? The 1 player that will either win the comp, or lose the comp (if they were injured?) In essence - the MVP of those teams? And do you feel that one of those people will win the Dally M?

    Thanks TC
     
  8. globaleagle

    globaleagle Où est mon chapeau Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Me? What'd I do??? lol

    I don't mind.

    I actually think Harmless27 = Technical coach.

    This way TC gets to do his long replies because "someone" has asked for them.

    TC gets a bit of a hammering, says he wont post long replies anymore, a relatively new poster comes along starting 2 threads with 'technical' in them and asking for TC's thoughts......TC is back in the saddle again!

    The world wins!

    Obv Dan knows if this is true or not and I don't mind if it's not (ther's no way H'less would admit to it - cue indignation). We all need a good conspiracy now and then (even minor ones).

    Keep in mind I never never complained about TC's posts.

    However I just woke up (wow tis 10am!) and I'm not sure what I'm typing. I'll see what that other poster 'Glogbal' thinks about things.

    Peace, love and happiness to all.
     
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  9. MK Eagle

    MK Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Had the same thoughts....to ask for another response after the reply Cliffy would not be very effective in todays game confirmed it for me.
     
  10. Clint

    Clint . Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Speaking of pseudonyms. You have a few don't you GE?
    globaleagle
    hat
    glog bal
    just to name a few....;)
     
  11. globaleagle

    globaleagle Où est mon chapeau Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    lol

    I am but a river to my people.

    An open book with plenty of pictures.
     
  12. Technical Coach

    Technical Coach Well-Known Member

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    You lost me with your reply, all I'm saying is Cliffy's lack of pace combined with better defensive structures especially outside backs coming up and in would reduce his time. He would still create holes no doubt but he did struggle against up and in defences.

    Cliffy would have to play predominantly behind second man plays in this day and age.
    [hr]
    I seem to be everyone these days but Dan knows the truth. Trace my IP address and it will show I'm currently at a video session with the Tigers.
     
  13. globaleagle

    globaleagle Où est mon chapeau Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    What's the video?

    The misfits!!!

    lolollocoptor!
     
  14. Harmless27

    Harmless27 Active Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Aaaahhhhh - i do LOVE a good conspiracy theory.

    I won't take any steps to dispell the rumours.... there is a handful of people here who would know of me based on previous interactions (I used to work with 1 person on this forum too).....

    Suffice to say - I think that TC is by far the most analytical and informative poster on this site (actually - on pretty much any site).

    BTW - very surprised i've not received more criticism for the spelling!
     
  15. MK Eagle

    MK Eagle Well-Known Member

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    Hmm...the TC theory is now heating up....if not is it brother Harmless 27??
     
  16. Jethro

    Jethro This space is for rent Staff Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    I had a look and it would appear that they are not the same person as the IP addresses don't match up.
     
  17. globaleagle

    globaleagle Où est mon chapeau Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    STOP QUOTING ME!

    -Dan

    Ah I mean Globaleagle.
     
  18. Harmless27

    Harmless27 Active Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Correct - different IP addresses.

    Perhaps I post from WORK and then home?

    Or on my iPad via wifi...??? hahahaha
     
  19. Jethro

    Jethro This space is for rent Staff Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    and that's why I said "it would appear that they are not the same person" as there are various ways to hide an IP address.
     
  20. Bradza

    Bradza Well-Known Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    No one has ever seen Harmless & T.C. in the same room together..........
     

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