TC's JT Discussion Thread

[Technical Coach]

The point of losing an Origin series and not really performing all that great combined is the main point trying to be made not just the loss alone.

A great player or one of the greats---to be one of the greats you have to change the way the game has been played along with have a lasting legacy in terms of performance consistency neither one Thurston has shown.

Thurston has not changed the way the game has been played, his skill set does not set himself above all others, always puts in a consistent "effort" never say die performance i give you that.

A.Johns fits the bill, C.Smith fits the bill.

If Ricky Stuart is not looked upon as a "great" who elevated the skill set of halves and changed the way the game (having a major influence on A.Johns) then Thurston can't be labelled a great.

Ricky Stuarts overall success level is at least the equal to what Thurston has achieved in your eyes surely--wasn't as tough as Thurston or fit but both have shown a consistent competitiveness in their own ways.

 

[Technical Coach]

You've also said Great is "changed the way the game has been played, elevated performance, along with consistency of brilliance". They are all highly subjective measures. Probably most would rate Thurston as meeting these criteria. If you disagree, can you be more specific why you disagree with the masses on this?

PS
Eric Simms was pretty much a plodder in general play. Barely first-grade standard. But he changed the way the game is played through his consistent brilliance in kicking field goals. In one game he kicked five field goals in 11 minutes. As a result of Eric Simms' consistent brilliance in kicking field goals, they were forced to be downgraded to be worth one point, and field goals virtually disappeared from the game. Prior to that they were almost as common as kicks to the in-goal are today.

It has been said of Simms and his ability to kick field goals that he is "one of the few men whose influence was such it singlehandedly changed the game"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Simms_(rugby_league)

Is Eric Simms a "Great"?

Takes more than one skill in my eyes to change the way the game is played these days so it might have been enough in the past to label someone like that not the present.

 

[Rex]

The point of losing an Origin series and not really performing all that great combined is the main point trying to be made not just the loss alone.

A great player or one of the greats---to be one of the greats you have to change the way the game has been played along with have a lasting legacy in terms of performance consistency neither one Thurston has shown.

Thurston has not changed the way the game has been played, his skill set does not set himself above all others, always puts in a consistent "effort" never say die performance i give you that.

A.Johns fits the bill, C.Smith fits the bill.

If Ricky Stuart is not looked upon as a "great" who elevated the skill set of halves and changed the way the game (having a major influence on A.Johns) then Thurston can't be labelled a great.

Ricky Stuarts overall success level is at least the equal to what Thurston has achieved in your eyes surely--wasn't as tough as Thurston or fit but both have shown a consistent competitiveness in their own ways.

So just two "Greats" over the last 20 years? Or are there more?

Is that the same C Smith who couldn't help Australia beat the Kiwis? The same games you blamed Thurston for? Couldn't lift his own performance or those of his teammates? That lost the same Origin series you blamed Thurston for? That couldn't even lift his club team into the GF of late, even with Slater and Cronk as fellow inspirations? Who has only won one legitimate GF in his career despite playing with the dream team?

And the same Johns who lost a good share of Origin series against a fairly ordinary Qld side, who had one discredited and apparently drug-assisted GF win in a weakened competition, and one genuine GF win (albeit against Parramatta)? Who played internationals at a time when internationals were a joke and had been for decades? Who shares the record for Dally Ms with Thurston? Who admits to long-term drug abuse that, according to the rules, should have wiped him out of the game?

I'm not arguing against your assessments of Johns and Smith, or really about Thurston, just applying a similar standard of critical challenge to Johns and Smith as greats as you liberally apply to Thurston. Interested to see what differences in substance you identify.

 

[Technical Coach]

Hookers have less "overall" influence on the game compared to a half or 5/8 but Cam Smith is the first real hooker to make people stand up and think "hmm Hookers do make a huge difference to a game not just a link to the halves)

Cam Smith's all round game, showing the art of holding up defenders around the ruck, long and short kicking game, passing game, picking his moments when to run with a level of cunning not seen before (in defence and attack i may add), along with his leadership qualities raised the bar big time for the dummy half role.

If Ballin has a poor,average or low impact game yet Foran or DCE have blinders you can bet Manly still win most games, If DCE or Foran have poor games and Ballin a blinder you can bet the chances of winning are reduced big time.

I've never rated internationals anyway. The best NRL games are of a higher structured trained for quality compared to Internationals and even Origin.---(all Origin has going for it is Intensity but even this gap is not as pronounced in the professional era)

In saying that Thurston's performances at Origin at critical times has not been great and even more so in Internationals.

I agree international football was of a lower quality when John's was playing for Australia but that is not his fault and you can't hold this against him. I also agree Johns didn't excel as much as people think in Origin but since Johns and Fittler have not been in the Origin squad the NSW performances have plummeted.

So then it comes down to NRL level, and Thurston has choked way too often during finals time along with not bringing a level of consistency that a great player should provide in terms of ladder position and team performance like Johns or even Fittler.(Thurston was not all that great in the GF either)

2012 no-one gave the Storm a chance at the start of the season, by the end once again the big three created rep quality around them again.

Don't care about players private lives and the use of recreational drugs to determine whether one is worthy of immortal status---others do, not for me to judge.

Parramatta from what i recall was the best performing team during the general season and were big favourites in that GF, (might be wrong so long ago) the Knights blew Parramatta away in the first half (i think first 20mins) so i would not under rate that team performance and John's leadership---i doubt a Thurston team would ever do that.

Melb storm was not the only team "way" over the cap just the only one made an example of and caught---but hey we can only go by the official records right, so i have to give you that one.

Just remember all those Melb Storm great players became great players at Melb, not purchased quality, they are only guilty of trying to illegally retain what they created.

Being in Melb they should of had more salary cap dispensation anyway, they were fighting an uphill battle to keep players who would prefer to go back home for the same money.(no excuse but understandable)

You do realise if the Storm players were being paid huge amounts the flow on effect to other clubs was the same, it creates an inflationary effect all round.

Take it this way i am entirely comfortable in all of Melb's GF wins have said so in the past and still retain the exact same thoughts today.

Rex agree to disagree let's move on to other threads....

 

[Rex]

Hookers have less "overall" influence on the game compared to a half or 5/8 but Cam Smith is the first real hooker to make people stand up and think "hmm Hookers do make a huge difference to a game not just a link to the halves)

Cam Smith's all round game, showing the art of holding up defenders around the ruck, long and short kicking game, passing game, picking his moments when to run with a level of cunning not seen before (in defence and attack i may add), along with his leadership qualities raised the bar big time for the dummy half role.

If Ballin has a poor,average or low impact game yet Foran or DCE have blinders you can bet Manly still win most games, If DCE or Foran have poor games and Ballin a blinder you can bet the chances of winning are reduced big time.

I've never rated internationals anyway. The best NRL games are of a higher structured trained for quality compared to Internationals and even Origin.---(all Origin has going for it is Intensity but even this gap is not as pronounced in the professional era)

In saying that Thurston's performances at Origin at critical times has not been great and even more so in Internationals.

I agree international football was of a lower quality when John's was playing for Australia but that is not his fault and you can't hold this against him. I also agree Johns didn't excel as much as people think in Origin but since Johns and Fittler have not been in the Origin squad the NSW performances have plummeted.

So then it comes down to NRL level, and Thurston has choked way too often during finals time along with not bringing a level of consistency that a great player should provide in terms of ladder position and team performance like Johns or even Fittler.(Thurston was not all that great in the GF either)

2012 no-one gave the Storm a chance at the start of the season, by the end once again the big three created rep quality around them again.

Don't care about players private lives and the use of recreational drugs to determine whether one is worthy of immortal status---others do, not for me to judge.

Parramatta from what i recall was the best performing team during the general season and were big favourites in that GF, (might be wrong so long ago) the Knights blew Parramatta away in the first half (i think first 20mins) so i would not under rate that team performance and John's leadership---i doubt a Thurston team would ever do that.

Melb storm was not the only team "way" over the cap just the only one made an example of and caught---but hey we can only go by the official records right, so i have to give you that one.

Just remember all those Melb Storm great players became great players at Melb, not purchased quality, they are only guilty of trying to illegally retain what they created.

Being in Melb they should of had more salary cap dispensation anyway, they were fighting an uphill battle to keep players who would prefer to go back home for the same money.(no excuse but understandable)

You do realise if the Storm players were being paid huge amounts the flow on effect to other clubs was the same, it creates an inflationary effect all round.

Take it this way i am entirely comfortable in all of Melb's GF wins have said so in the past and still retain the exact same thoughts today.

Rex agree to disagree let's move on to other threads....

1. Agree that Cam Smith was streets ahead the best hooker of his time, and set a benchmark that others couldn't reach. I'd suggest the same for Thurston in his position (half & when Lockyer retired five-eighth).

2. To suggest Cam Smith is the first real hooker to make people stand up and think "hmm Hookers do make a huge difference to a game..." is ludicrous. Each major era has had a hooker that stood out or revolutionised the position. eg Max Krilich turned hookers from ball winners into an attacking force. Geoff Toovey totally revolutionised the role of hooker with his speedy darts from dummy half. And Buderus paved the way in setting up play that Cam Smith followed.

3. You've still not reversed your view that it was Thurstons 100% responsibility to lift the SOO or Aust teams when they lost. Says a lot about your true view of Cam Smith that you don't see those losses as in any way his responsibility or failure. I suppose that you're going to claim that Cam Smith's performances at critical times in those lost tests & SOO games were outstanding? His leadership was inspirational? My memory is that the sole player to have been a part of all of the wins in the Queensland SOO record - the single common denominator - was ... Johnathan Thurston. Interesting eh? Although probably not for someone who isn't interested in facts which conflict with his rigid prejudices.

4. When the Cowboys don't win it is always because Thurston choked? Really? And when the Knight or Storm lost, it was never because Smith or Johns choked? lol I suppose just because no-one else sees what you see doesn't mean you should change your view.

5. Your Storm love-fest continues. Not sure why you want to post on this site really. When Salary cap rorters buy all the top quality juniors, it is a fair chance they'll have some "home-grown" stars in the future. Your minimisation of Melbourne's extreme salary cap rorting, claiming it was the same with the other teams, without any evidence to support your extraordinary claim, shows where your true allegiances may lie.

 

[Technical Coach]

1) That is up to you to agree/disagree no problem with that, i just don't hold Thurston to the level of either Cam Smith or Johns.(i've stated why a million times why i feel this way, i don't ask you to do the same thing over and over)

2)You are stating the obvious there is always evolution in every position but with Cam Smith the jump in overall skill level, the way he analyzed teams like a coach and found weaknesses and his overall impact was bigger than previous jumps in this position.

Buderus was a quality player admired his clean, crisp passing distribution on both sides and Ballin is almost a carbon copy of Buderus----Ballin not as effective at running out of dummy half but probably a little defensively tougher.

3)It's not about "who is at fault" Thurston could have a great game and Australia or whoever he plays for loses, there is a difference between at fault and not great enough to overcome the weaknesses in a team. As a half there is greater emphasis and responsibility in the scoring output element, while a hookers prime concern is organising clean distribution to the forwards and backs to make it happen.

Australia's forward pack under the increased interchange rules loses it's Aerobic capacity based advantages that we had in the past against NZ's explosive but fatigue quicker forward packs which has helped NZ bridge the gap internationally along with more NRL level players.(I've mentioned this in the past)

4)I never stated all losses under Thurston are his fault you once again go off on some extreme tangent just to create another reason for me to reply. I have stated at times in the big games Thurston has choked too often for my liking---the end result matters to a degree(but not the be all and end all to my views) my analysis is more based on his performances and output under pressure in many of the big games i have noticed.

5) So i can't admire players from other clubs or another team or coach because it does not suit well with Manly fans on this site now?

If i supported Melbourne i would not waste time dribbling here for how many years, i have no allegiances i just hold opinions that differ to others if you don't like or agree with them so be it.

As for the Salary cap I'm comfortable in my opinion and that is all that matters, i mean how many clubs since then have had varying degrees of Salary cap breaches all under the "minor accidental infringement" tag, to me this is one indicator that we don't see the real picture.

In saying that i do believe clubs respect the cap more these days not all due to compliance pressures but more about respecting individual clubs budget constraints---more about trying to break even or making a profit with sustainable growth than relying on premierships for a short term windfall to makes ends meet once every 10 years.

 

[JenEagle]

I gotta say it's been a very good read boys. Both of you have some great league insight. Nice work.

 

[Jethro]

I gotta say it's been a very good read boys. Both of you have some great league insight. Nice work.

That's why I gave it it's own thread instead of deleting it as off topic in the 'better than Foran?' thread.

 

[Rex]

1) That is up to you to agree/disagree no problem with that, i just don't hold Thurston to the level of either Cam Smith or Thurston.(i've stated why a million times why i feel this way, i don't ask you to do the same thing over and over)

2)You are stating the obvious there is always evolution in every position but with Cam Smith the jump in overall skill level, the way he analyzed teams like a coach and found weaknesses and his overall impact was bigger than previous jumps in this position.

Buderus was a quality player admired his clean, crisp passing distribution on both sides and Ballin is almost a carbon copy of Buderus----Ballin not as effective at running out of dummy half but probably a little defensively tougher.

3)It's not about "who is at fault" Thurston could have a great game and Australia or whoever he plays for loses, there is a difference between at fault and not great enough to overcome the weaknesses in a team. As a half there is greater emphasis and responsibility in the scoring output element, while a hookers prime concern is organising clean distribution to the forwards and backs to make it happen.

Australias forward pack under the increased interchange rules loses it's Aerobic capacity based advantages that we had in the past against NZ's explosive but fatigue quicker forward packs which has helped NZ bridge the gap internationally along with more NRL level players.(i've mentioned this in the past)

4)I never stated all losses under Thurston are his fault you once again go off on some extreme tangent just to create another reason for me to reply. I have stated at times in the big games Thurston has choked too often for my liking---the end result matters to a degree(but not the be all and end all to my views) my analysis is more based on his performances and output under pressure in many of the big games i have noticed.

5) So i can't admire players from other clubs or another team or coach because it does not suit well with Manly fans on this site now?

If i supported Melbourne i would not waste time dribbling here for how many years, i have no allegiances i just hold opinions that differ to others if you don't like or agree with them so be it.

As for the Salary cap I'm comfortable in my opinion and that is all that matters, i mean how many clubs since then have had varying degrees of Salary cap breaches all under the "minor accidental infringement" tag, to me this is one indicator that we don't see the real picture.

In saying that i do believe clubs respect the cap more these days not all due to compliance pressures but more about respecting individual clubs budget constraints---more about trying to break even or making a profit with sustainable growth than relying on premierships for a short term windfall to makes ends meet once every 10 years.

Yeah, but back on topic, is Dylan Walker better than Foran TC? ☺

 

[Technical Coach]

That's why I gave it it's own thread instead of deleting it as off topic in the 'better than Foran?' thread.

Title of thread is misleading as I'm not asking the questions and no admin has the right to initiate a new Thread falsely representing me , it's all about brand protection yada yada yada yada but something to think about.

It's all good, it should help the thread die more quickly so I'm all for it.

 

[Technical Coach]

Yeah, but back on topic, is Dylan Walker better than Foran TC? ☺

No---the end.

 

[Deleted member 24974]

I actually don't think Thurston is a great player. I would rate him somewhere around Orford. I remember the 2011 semi against Manly's when he missed multiple takles and dropped a critical ball that changed the game.
I've always believed the media has pushed Thurston as a great player wanting to increase there rating and exposure of the game in Queensland.

 

[Nice Beaver]

This whole thing has to be a troll.

No sane league supporter (who knows their arse from their head) does not think Thurston is a bloody brilliant player.

Trying to spout self important crap otherwise is either insane ego or sheer stupidity.

Take your pick.

 

[Mal Cochrane]

yes he is, he's just never owned it at rep level.

 

[Mark from Brisbane]

yes he is, he's just never owned it at rep level.

I think he has at SOO level, although if you explain " owned" as dominating the whole game then he hasn't. BUT take Thurston or for that matter Cronk out of QLD and they come down a few pegs.

 

[SeaEagleRock8]

Yeah, but back on topic, is Dylan Walker better than Foran TC? ☺

Sorry, you got confused, that is now off topic!

 

[manlyfan76]

I actually don't think Thurston is a great player. I would rate him somewhere around Orford. I remember the 2011 semi against Manly's when he missed multiple takles and dropped a critical ball that changed the game.
I've always believed the media has pushed Thurston as a great player wanting to increase there rating and exposure of the game in Queensland.

Take away every forward pass and where would JT rate? Def not an immortal.

 

[maxta]

Every forward pass??
How about every try assist?
Every kick for field position?
Every pass creating opportunity?
Match winning field goal?
Match winning goal?
Inspiring his team?
Changing a game off pure instinct?
How about being 1 of todays best players....in fact...the best....
Sorry not a Manly player.....who cares....still the best.

 

[Budgie]

And I have never seen a more passionate player. Passion counts for a great deal.

 

[Technical Coach]

Every forward pass??
How about every try assist?
Every kick for field position?
Every pass creating opportunity?
Match winning field goal?
Match winning goal?
Inspiring his team?
Changing a game off pure instinct?
How about being 1 of todays best players....in fact...the best....
Sorry not a Manly player.....who cares....still the best.

The best in your opinion not the best.

The way Thurston for Qld legends is being talked up above Cam Smith and Lockyer is a joke for more modern examples---Langer also who had more dominance at Origin and NRL level. (even if i consider Langers passing game was very limited especially left to right, to be fair most player of that time were weak passing in that direction also)

Thurston is a likable media darling with a quirky laugh that has endeared him to the public more so than others along with his game day free handouts for good PR.

I also believe there are other reasons why Thurston is being promoted as one of the greatest that has brainwashed people to believe the hype

Good player, one of the better players but below many others, who choked way too many times at NRL finals time.