TC's JT Discussion Thread

[Rex]

The video link had zero to do with "desperation" but if it makes you feel somewhat elevated and insightful i will go with it. The video link was to show the two passes(not the rest of the highlights) what kind of pass variation Foran has if allowed more freedom and the type of play an older 5/8 will display behind a decent forward pack if he was retained---this also goes to DCE)

DCE's passing variety was just as rare,(the majority of DCE's impact has been show and goes down the short side or off the back of pet play second man variations) most of our backline plays were rehearsed structures.(as is 90% of plays from most teams in the interchange era)

As for Stewart, you are overstating his organising influence due to his standing in the game---sure he picks his moments to run but that is different to organizing, all good fullbacks will call for the ball when they see numbers, Stewart's quality was in his timing and quick hands off the back of structured plays.

Thurston at Manly behind our pack would have seen Manly drop out of the 8 more so than just last year.

Thurston's performances throughout his career at the Cowboys especially in the big games along with not getting QLD up when a few injuries hit shows his limitations when quality is not surrounding him.

The big difference that allowed the Cowboys to go another level was the improvement in the forward pack, the coaching department polishing up their structures, simplifying and more direct in some areas and overall better discipline and toughness in away games for consistent performances.

Yeah, your thoughts on JT are well known TC. Apart from yet another Dally M, Thurston was:

• captain of the premiers
• the 3rd highest point-scorer in the comp
• best in comp for try assists with 33 - second was Benji on 22
• best in comp for line break assists with 33 - second was Maloney on 19

I suspect if he wanted to play for Manly on base salary we'd maybe find some way to squeeze him in

 

[Bearfax]

Yeah, your thoughts on JT are well known TC. Apart from yet another Dally M, Thurston was:

• captain of the premiers
• the 3rd highest point-scorer in the comp
• best in comp for try assists with 33 - second was Benji on 22
• best in comp for line break assists with 33 - second was Maloney on 19

I suspect if he wanted to play for Manly on base salary we'd maybe find some way to squeeze him in

Absolutely Rex. Thurston at the moment is easily the best player in the game, though Cam Smith in my mind overall has also been an outstanding player. In my mind in the past 10 years there have been three players worthy of serious consideration for 'Legend' status. Lockyer, Cam Smith and Thurston. Hayne could have been there if he had stayed and played out a half dozen more seasons, but he didnt. Cant see anyone else deserving of that status, though Lyons deserves a mention

 

[Technical Coach]

Yeah, your thoughts on JT are well known TC. Apart from yet another Dally M, Thurston was:

• captain of the premiers
• the 3rd highest point-scorer in the comp
• best in comp for try assists with 33 - second was Benji on 22
• best in comp for line break assists with 33 - second was Maloney on 19

I suspect if he wanted to play for Manly on base salary we'd maybe find some way to squeeze him in

There is a difference between an assist and last pass ball distribution.

Thurston would struggle with assists behind a weak forward pack like Manly have had for years, and the try assists at Manly are more evenly distributed over several players lowering their individual numbers.

Could care less about being top point scorer he is a goal kicker after-all but yeah a reasonably talented goal kicker which is a skill you have to admire i give you that.

Been the Cowboys Captain for years and focal point without winning anything until a new coaching department polished up the structures, set some discipline and improved the go forward, along with a new dummy half option to compliment and take advantage of a strong forward pack.

Australian forward pack has been showing signs of weakness compared to NZ and under JT he is unable to compensate for this weakness with his so called class and get Australia up for the big games "consistently"

Failed with QLD when missing players.

Choked for years at finals time until this year.

And the above is worthy of legend status i don't think so.(good competitive player not a great player)

 

[Rex]

There is a difference between an assist and last pass ball distribution.

Thurston would struggle with assists behind a weak forward pack like Manly have had for years, and the try assists at Manly are more evenly distributed over several players lowering their individual numbers.

Could care less about being top point scorer he is a goal kicker after-all but yeah a reasonably talented goal kicker which is a skill you have to admire i give you that.

Been the Cowboys Captain for years and focal point without winning anything until a new coaching department polished up the structures, set some discipline and improved the go forward, along with a new dummy half option to compliment and take advantage of a strong forward pack.

Australian forward pack has been showing signs of weakness compared to NZ and under JT he is unable to compensate for this weakness with his so called class and get Australia up for the big games "consistently"

Failed with QLD when missing players.

Choked for years at finals time until this year.

And the above is worthy of legend status i don't think so.(good competitive player not a great player)

It sounds like, in your world, any team successes are because of the players around him. And any team failings are JT's fault. Could anything I said, or anyone else said, influence this viewpoint?

 

[Technical Coach]

It sounds like, in your world, any team successes are because of the players around him. And any team failings are JT's fault. Could anything I said, or anyone else said, influence this viewpoint?

Nope some players are just a class above and can bring players up, Thurston is not one of them.
Qld's dominance is due to Melb Storm Class,Lockyers leadership combined with having more passion for Origin.

If Thurston was so great Australia would not slip back as far as we have(even with less impact in the forwards) and when he had the chance to bring out the best in others during Origin when injuries hit straight away Qld lose a series----both of the above was his chance to leave his mark and he failed to do so.

People think i am crazy so be it i just don't think he is great, he is good but not great.

Cameron Smith is a great.

 

[Rex]

Nope some players are just a class above and can bring players up, Thurston is not one of them.
Qld's dominance is due to Melb Storm Class,Lockyers leadership combined with having more passion for Origin.

If Thurston was so great Australia would not slip back as far as we have(even with less impact in the forwards) and when he had the chance to bring out the best in others during Origin when injuries hit straight away Qld lose a series----both of the above was his chance to leave his mark and he failed to do so.

People think i am crazy so be it i just don't think he is great, he is good but not great.

Cameron Smith is a great.

No difficulty understanding that you might see other players as better. I guess I was surprised to hear you suggest, for example, that Manly would have gone worse last year if Thurston had been playing for us. All other things being equal (ie forget about salary cap effects), I'd be thinking that based on goalkicking alone he could have maybe won a few more games for us.

 

[Technical Coach]

No difficulty understanding that you might see other players as better. I guess I was surprised to hear you suggest, for example, that Manly would have gone worse last year if Thurston had been playing for us. All other things being equal (ie forget about salary cap effects), I'd be thinking that based on goalkicking alone he could have maybe won a few more games for us.

You are basing that on the presumption that minus DCE or Foran the try scoring output and lateral spreads go forward would equal the same amount of points to convert.

I don't see Thurston creating much with the forward packs we have had along with the fact his kicking game or passing game is no better than and in most cases worse than the above two(slightly better than Forans weak kicking game at best)---he does make up for that with inspirational plays and is always scheming probing with a good show and go.

I will say Thurston has improved most in the last 2-3 years with his passing and is now being allowed to float around where in the past was just stuck on the left---still his left to right passing variation is poor/average at best.

 

[Bearfax]

You are basing that on the presumption that minus DCE or Foran the try scoring output and lateral spreads go forward would equal the same amount of points to convert.

I don't see Thurston creating much with the forward packs we have had along with the fact his kicking game or passing game is no better than and in most cases worse than the above two(slightly better than Forans weak kicking game at best)---he does make up for that with inspirational plays and is always scheming probing with a good show and go.

I will say Thurston has improved most in the last 2-3 years with his passing and is now being allowed to float around where in the past was just stuck on the left---still his left to right passing variation is poor/average at best.

Technical Coach. I dont know what your issue is about Thurston, but there is no way North Queensland would be, and have been, a major threat in this comp without him in that side. And yes Lockyer is a great player and was one of the main reasons QLD fared so well while he was there. But Thurston is most definitely another and one of the main reasons the Blues have so much trouble against QLD in SOO in recent years.

 

[Rex]

You are basing that on the presumption that minus DCE or Foran the try scoring output and lateral spreads go forward would equal the same amount of points to convert.

I don't see Thurston creating much with the forward packs we have had along with the fact his kicking game or passing game is no better than and in most cases worse than the above two(slightly better than Forans weak kicking game at best)---he does make up for that with inspirational plays and is always scheming probing with a good show and go.

I will say Thurston has improved most in the last 2-3 years with his passing and is now being allowed to float around where in the past was just stuck on the left---still his left to right passing variation is poor/average at best.

If both Foran & DCE were fit (which wasn't that often last year) the halves would have been DCE & Thurston. Foran would have been moved to the centres (if Lyon or Matai were out) or to lock. Would have given Manly many attacking options, and a first rate goal kicker.

Otherwise Foran would have been dropped.

 

[Top End Eagle]

Rex Technical Coach is a big noting nuffy who has no insight other than that an eleven year old could pick up listening to phil goulds commentary. He has no idea about footballers or football. If he did he would know Thurston for what he is. A footballer. He gets off on people here paying him attention. His arrogant monicker and clueless interpersonal and gramattical attempts at understanding a game that is more than statistics or structures is why I read everything he writes in a robotic voice. If he hadn't tried so hard to convince people he was kelly Egan a couple of years ago I would have just ignored him and written him off as not worth my time. But now I like to imagine him as the tin man. Heart defines footballers and wins football.

 

[Technical Coach]

Rex Technical Coach is a big noting nuffy who has no insight other than that an eleven year old could pick up listening to phil goulds commentary. He has no idea about footballers or football. If he did he would know Thurston for what he is. A footballer. He gets off on people here paying him attention. His arrogant monicker and clueless interpersonal and gramattical attempts at understanding a game that is more than statistics or structures is why I read everything he writes in a robotic voice. If he hadn't tried so hard to convince people he was kelly Egan a couple of years ago I would have just ignored him and written him off as not worth my time. But now I like to imagine him as the tin man. Heart defines footballers and wins football.

Well done mate, seems you get off on your own commentary without even taking a breath to make half an effort to break up your sentences.

Phil Goulds observations are behind the times just a heads up.

 

[Technical Coach]

Rex Technical Coach is a big noting nuffy who has no insight other than that an eleven year old could pick up listening to phil goulds commentary. He has no idea about footballers or football. If he did he would know Thurston for what he is. A footballer. He gets off on people here paying him attention. His arrogant monicker and clueless interpersonal and gramattical attempts at understanding a game that is more than statistics or structures is why I read everything he writes in a robotic voice. If he hadn't tried so hard to convince people he was kelly Egan a couple of years ago I would have just ignored him and written him off as not worth my time. But now I like to imagine him as the tin man. Heart defines footballers and wins football.

I never said i was Kelly Egan you fool, grow the f^&% and check your facts, others labelled me a million names if i said i wasn't that person people said i was hiding so i just never confirmed or denied as i was wasting my time doing so.

I mentioned several times i'm just an average Joe and people still didn't take my word for it, so i played up to those people who were deluded and the sane people got the joke.

 

[Technical Coach]

If both Foran & DCE were fit (which wasn't that often last year) the halves would have been DCE & Thurston. Foran would have been moved to the centres (if Lyon or Matai were out) or to lock. Would have given Manly many attacking options, and a first rate goal kicker.

Otherwise Foran would have been dropped.

If that is your line up forget about the back end of the season short revival, the season would have been over earlier.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

Long time reader, first time poster. I must say I find TC's posts extremely insightful. I do however disagree with his opinion on JT. I must admit, I thought he was a better player going back a few years, when the cowgirls weren't such a well rounded side, but he didn't really need to carry them all on his own this year, like he did back then. Nevertheless, he's still a great player & without him they wouldn't have won jack. As for our former no6, who's name I can't even mention, he would never have been dropped. I was devastated when he left, but if we still had him we could definitely talk Manly premiership in 2016! In saying that, it's all on chez now to fill those shoes. He must prove he can be consistent & assume the responsibility of chief playmaker

 

[Rex]

If that is your line up forget about the back end of the season short revival, the season would have been over earlier.

OK. So you not only rate Foran higher than Thurston - huge call - but you rate the various replacements Manly used this year for Foran & DCE & the centres higher than Thurston!

If you can convince anyone with footy knowledge of that, then you'll have a big career in front of you as player manager for the likes of Williame.

 

[Technical Coach]

OK. So you not only rate Foran higher than Thurston - huge call - but you rate the various replacements Manly used this year for Foran & DCE & the centres higher than Thurston!

If you can convince anyone with footy knowledge of that, then you'll have a big career in front of you as player manager for the likes of Williame.

No i never said that, i'm stating replacing either DCE or Foran with Thurston, or putting Foran at centre and Thurston into the halves would see a worse result.

Basically in a nutshell i would take DCE or Foran or many other players ahead of Thurston to build a premiership winning team.(This is not some Foran is the greatest and i would have no other)

Some of the negative comments in relation to Foran are warranted(attitude especially during the second half of 2014) but most of it is exaggerated, stretched, and not put into perspective in relation to injuries he was playing with, frustration due to playing under a lack of forward depth and getting caught up with the mess created by other senior players who should know better.

 

[Rex]

No i never said that, i'm stating replacing either DCE or Foran with Thurston, or putting Foran at centre and Thurston into the halves would see a worse result.

Basically in a nutshell i would take DCE or Foran or many other players ahead of Thurston to build a premiership winning team.(This is not some Foran is the greatest and i would have no other)

Some of the negative comments in relation to Foran are warranted(attitude especially during the second half of 2014) but most of it is exaggerated, stretched, and not put into perspective in relation to injuries he was playing with, frustration due to playing under a lack of forward depth and getting caught up with the mess created by other senior players who should know better.

So with Lyon out, you think we'd be better off having Foran 5/8th with Williame centre than Thurston 5/8th with Foran centre. OK.

It was the extremism of your hatred of Thurston that I was highlighting, and am continuing to highlight.

 

[Technical Coach]

So with Lyon out, you think we'd be better off having Foran 5/8th with Williame centre than Thurston 5/8th with Foran centre. OK.

It was the extremism of your hatred of Thurston that I was highlighting, and am continuing to highlight.

What are you on about i am clearly stating "having Thurston in our mix and removing one of the halves" we would not perform as well--- even putting Foran at Centre to accommodate Thurston in the halves Manly would go backwards also.

Where in the world do you get the idea of Lyon out Williame at centre?

I don't get your angle mate, the clear original point was to make it be known in my opinion the lack of forward grunt and depth at Manly for the last few years Thurston's style would not compliment or improve the side at all---Manly would have performed worse.

The best way to illustrate the quality of our back-line and halves is the 2013 season, our forward pack was not up to GF standard but our back-line and halved got us to the GF and 20 or so mins from taking it out---the halves executed plays even when the go forward at times lacked punch.

The amount of effort the back-line and halves exhausted throughout the 2013 year and the ability of the young halves to make do with what we had is something above what Thurston is capable of.

 

[Top End Eagle]

What are you on about i am clearly stating "having Thurston in our mix and removing one of the halves" we would not perform as well--- even putting Foran at Centre to accommodate Thurston in the halves Manly would go backwards also.

Where in the world do you get the idea of Lyon out Williame at centre?

I don't get your angle mate, the clear original point was to make it be known in my opinion the lack of forward grunt and depth at Manly for the last few years Thurston's style would not compliment or improve the side at all---Manly would have performed worse.

The best way to illustrate the quality of our back-line and halves is the 2013 season, our forward pack was not up to GF standard but our back-line and halved got us to the GF and 20 or so mins from taking it out---the halves executed plays even when the go forward at times lacked punch.

The amount of effort the back-line and halves exhausted throughout the 2013 year and the ability of the young halves to make do with what we had is something above what Thurston is capable of.

If you just say it more succinctly people will get it TC. I will have a go for you.

'Jonothan Thurston doesn't look like a player I would be able to computer model I don't understand how he throws non spiral passes and hits attacking players in holes'

'I can't understand how people who play the game and have payed the game rate him. It does not compute - is there something more to this rugby league you humans are so fascinated with that eludes my technical observations, I though I was doing so well passing as a human analyst '

Your master should have let you lace up the boots

 

[Bearfax]

What is it with this anti-Thurston push T.C. The man just carried the Cows to a premiership. Do you really think they would have been there without him. In years past there were two players you always watched out for in the Cow's side. Thurston and Bowen, and they tended to play off each other. What I like about Thurston as a player is his competitiveness. His enthusiasm reminds me of Lewis at his prime. Very different players but similarly influential on a game. Thurston is in your face the whole game. He doesnt take a nap like many players. He leads from the front and in my mind is easily the best half at the moment in the game, even better than Cronk.

Now if we were talking about his personal life especially when he was a lot younger, that's another story and perhaps that's what you have against him. Or is it purely because he gives it to Manly and like most of the 'mouths' in the game, he lets you know what he thinks, whether rightly or wrongly. Fulton was an expert at it. But that's smart football.