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storm aside, what do you think of the mclean/mckinnon incident

Discussion in 'Rugby League Forum' started by jbb/james, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. jbb/james

    jbb/james Well-Known Member

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    Gee you have to feel sorry for Alex, his family, and all involved. it a terrible outcome.

    But where to from here

    Firstly the NRL has let all footballers down how they have sat on their collective hands and allowed the game to morph into where it is today. Teams have realised that a bootlace tackle is not in the teams best interests and have thus crept down this road, of stop, secure, upend, throw and turtle the player to slow down the ruck. There have been many examples of near misses over the last couple of seasons that have shown us its only a matter of time.

    It also allows the ball player hope, as he continues to struggle and pump which lengthens the tackle process allowing more time for something ugly to occur, usually defence gets agitated and goes for the upend to stop the player quickly. Its a script. Its so predictable

    Not only has the NRL allowed it but they have essentially endorsed it by creating more rules in the summer to speed up the play the ball making this contest all the more important. A few knee injuries and a ad hoc change in the rules has resulted in a new target ,nothing else

    And the Irony that The Melbourne storm are right in the centre of this. The NRL has devised all kinds of rules, based on crushers, chicken wings and head twists, turtles and arm locks instead of just blowing them off the park with not in the spirit of the game.In fact they have pissed about so much for so long that rather than deterring the actions they have fostered and all in mantra which has flourished. Its all too hard seems to be the attitude.

    I feel sorry for Mclean, he is a young guy who has debuted under this system, tolerated by the NRL, enforced by his employer and encouraged by his experienced fancied team mates, future Immortals they say

    But regardless his actions have led to a serious injury. The outcome was not a deliberate intent but, he was put in a dangerous position,and suffered as a result. This is a rehearsed method to slow the player down but it does come with risk with the third man lifting after 2 men go high and twist. Until now the players , the teams, the coaches and the NRL have rolled the dice , but Alex Mckinnon has to pay the price

    Now the test for the judiciary. While there is no rule it has long been known that the injury adds weeks at the judiciary based on injury. Many even want a system that reflect that very scenario. So what do they do. here is a chance to change it all, to draw a line in the sand, to turn back the clock to when tackling was simpler, and fast attractive play was achieved by offloads and second phase play, and from back lines rather than hit ups,surrender tackles and dummy half scoots. This sentence of Mclean who is also a victim to some extent, is crucial for the game. To throw up the hands and accept that this is part of the game at this point is to not accept liability by all actions and neglect that got the game here ....now

    I feel sorry for Mclean but he has to go.But he shouldnt be the only one. Everyone in the tackle should go. They all played a part.Besides this situation is a team situation, not just Mcleans. A clear message has to be sent that people are more important that stats and play the ball speed. We need to send a clear message that regardless of the 600 rule changes that the game being played is not rugby league anymore. A message needs to be sent that if you run the gauntlet you pay the price

    But i expect we wont, and that will be sad and neglectful for the next bloke.
     
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  2. Shoe1

    Shoe1 Well-Known Member

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    I am surprised at the NRL response.

    The NRL has explicitly outlawed tacklers putting a hand between an opponents leg and lifting - for the very reason it puts a player in a dangerous position. This is exactly what happened to McKinnon, and I can scarcely imagine a worse outcome than has occurred with the breaking of 2 vertebrae.

    If the storm player doesn't get 1 or 2 years suspension, why not?

    He shouldn't be playing this week. I feel the NRL has gone to water on what has been a clear policy of "no lifting" over recent years. If he didn't get a broken neck, Jordan may be on a grade 2 or 3 lifting charge, and he wouldn't be playing. Break the neck however and you get to play.
     
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  3. HappilyManly

    HappilyManly MWTS Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    The hand between the legs has always been looked at and usually get a Grade 1 Dangerous Contact Charge. Fa'aoso was hung by the Media and ex Players last April for 8 weeks on the double on GI :cool:

    The issue of having 3 people wrestling an unprotected Player has not been solved by the NRL. :(
    I still think that the Referees should call 'held' as soon as the 3rd Man contacts with the Player - as their only intent is to put him on the ground, the momentum has already stopped. Its ugly to watch and needs to be addressed ASAP. :idea:

    Alex's resulting injury is only referred to as an 'accident' because of the lack of 'intent'. I don't believe that any Player ever intends to maim another anyway - so its a moot point. Bu the probability of an accident was increased by the raising of his legs above the horizontal whilst 2 Players were pushing his torso to the ground :cool:

    The 3 Players were all responsible, so I don't understand why only 1 is charged :huh:

    Its tragic for Alex but the NRL can not avoid applying the rules :cool:
     
  4. swoop

    swoop Well-Known Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    IMO what Mclean did was most likely legal. Unfortunately as you have said it is the rules that have lead to this.

    As Bones said in another thread, players should be rewarded for bootlace tackles, but they're not. As a result the ball and all tackle and wrestling players to the ground has become the norm.

    We've seen plenty of near misses and it was only going to be a matter of time before something like this happen.

    It's all about slowing the play the ball. One thing I'd like to see changed is once the forward momentum of a player is halted the referee should call held.
    Instead they are allowed to stand there for an extra few seconds trying to offload which also gives the defending team time to get more players in the tackle to stop the offload. This is where all sorts of problems can occur.

    Another is to restrict it to only two defenders in a tackle.

    There is no easy answer and not matter what changes are made it will happen again. Unfortunately it's an occupational hazard.

    Best wishes to Alex and the McKinnon family.
     
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  5. RiverEagle

    RiverEagle New Member

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    Just terrible...a perfect storm ( No Pun Intended) of circumstances in our modern game, leads to a tragic accident.

    Whilst the tackle wasn't malicious they really need to get tougher on the lift in tackles, particularly when two or more defenders are involved. I'm not going to wade in to what punishment young McLean should or will get...I feel for him too, in this instance ( his two teammates contributed to the trajectory of the tackle, and Alex tucking his head to , ironically, to protect himself, also didn't help).

    Just a tragedy that transcends the game and rivalries and I can only wish Alex, his family and friends, his club AND young McLean all the best.
     
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  6. EagleFromMay1967

    EagleFromMay1967 In bed before the room got dark.

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    McLean should be suspended for at least 5 weeks (for his own good). He can recover mentally.

    Bellamy should be suspended from coaching indefinately, or at least until Alex M leaves hospital.:mad:
     
  7. Frogz

    Frogz Don't mess with the goat, he has photos. Premium Member

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    The Storm last week had a totally new way of getting 3 in the tackle...They were back to their Grubby Grappling Worst.

    Unfortunately for Maclean, had he not put his arm between his legs and lifted this would not have happened....Its wasn't intentional, but they normally aren't.

    I think he will get 6-8 weeks. The part I hate (and this is purely against Melbourne) was that Cameron Smith was not sanctioned by the NRL for his performance on the field whilst they were treating McKinnon.
     
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  8. The Who

    The Who Well-Known Member

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    I find it sickening that the Storm pushed for McLean to play this weekend.
    Why? Because it enhances their chance of winning.
    So much for feeling sympathy for the victim.
     
  9. north coast eagle

    north coast eagle Active Member

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    It is a total disgrace that Kingy is missing a week and Maclean is playing. Imagine if someone gets hurt this weekend and Maclean is involved, regardless of his intention. The NRL have a duty of care to their players and the players families. This is very poor leadership and it all boils down to money and trying to cover up the storms structures that have led to this incident - it should actually be Bellamy that should serve a long suspension.
     
  10. mosto

    mosto Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Obviously I feel for McKinnon, but I also feel for McLean. However, the only way clubs/players will stop is with direct and strong action. The lifting tackle and shoulder charge IMO are easy to eradicate and at the same time see the harmless versions go unpenalised (re King Dog).

    Shoulder charge if you want, but you contact the head, your off!

    Lift if you want, but if first contact the tackled player has with the ground is from the shoulder up (or arm if it is raised to protect the head), your off!

    If teams are regularly down to 12 men, you'd see these tackles, or the bad versions of them at least, eradicated from the game fairly quickly IMO.

    As with all hard and fast rules, there would be the odd tackle that is unlucky to be caught up in it. I can think of the Simona tackle on GI, which was unavoidable, but, unfortunately, under these guidelines, he would of been sent, as he contacted the head. In a case such as this, you would hope the judiciary would take the circumstances into account.
     
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  11. Brissie Kid

    Brissie Kid Well-Known Member

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    I think the tackle was legal. The tackler didn't put his hands between the legs and lift. He put his hands around the outside of the legs. He doesn't seem to lift the player above the horizontal. The force and actions of the other two tacklers up higher also are relevant. What the player being tackled did is also relevant.

    This injury scenario has been evolving since the early part of the last decade when tackling and wrestling techniques to slow the play the ball down became tolerated and even rewarded ("dominant tackle!").

    At the same time players were being taught how to counter the tackle and wrestle to land face and elbows first so they could get a quick play the ball.

    In some ways players being lifted were making things worse by trying to still position themselves for a quick play the ball. People said this of Inglis last year.

    This was all the result of the change from the 5m to 10m rule a decade before that.

    If they say it was a legal tackle there will be an initial howl of abuse thrown at the NRL. Has the NRL the nerve to hold out against that abuse and not change the game's tackling rules?

    I'm no lawyer but I think if the NRL via its judiciary say it was a tackle that broke the game's rules the player/s involved will be in some legal trouble down the track. But so too may be the club if it was a tackling technique taught by the club and the players told to use it in games. The tackler being sued may in turn sue the club. What a mess.
     
  12. bones

    bones Bones Knows Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    If McLean is rubbed out, then every player who does a similar tackle should also be rubbed out. Then we won't have a game to watch as there won't be any players left. There are a dozens of similar tackles in every match every weekend.
    McLean is not to blame for this. The NRL are, for introducing the dominant tackle rule. And the coaches are for introducing wrestling coaches into the game. McLean was simply doing what he has been coached to do, and what the NRL have allowed him to do ever since he started playing NRL.
     
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  13. HappilyManly

    HappilyManly MWTS Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1730921/updated-snowden-accepts-7-game-suspension/

    The precedent was set by the NRL last year, that in fact, the injury to the Player is a factor in the penalty :cool:

    Snowden only got 7 weeks because the broken jaw of Ray Thompson.
    SBW's shoulder charge this year was the same, but no break, so he only got 2 weeks +1 week loading for being a repeat offender.
     
  14. Chip and Chase

    Chip and Chase True Supporter Staff Member Administrator Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Tragic incident all round. As others have stated these type of tackles happen regularly every game, every week. In this case an accident happened that no one intended or could have reasonably foreseen. I don't think Maclean should pay a greater penalty because of the horrible outcome. It's different to a shoulder charge, swinging arm, classic spear tackle, because in all those instances the action is reckless and the intent is to cause extra physical hurt over and above a normal tackle. If the NRL tolerate these types of tackles 100 times a weekend then they can't punish the one that produces the very low percentage devastating outcome. By definition the NRL have accepted the risk associated with these type of tackles by NOT punishing any of the previous perpetrators of hands between the legs lifting in a gang tackle. How do you justify a very lengthy suspension now for an act you previously deemed low grade ??

    Maybe moving forward this will force a rethink on 3 man tackles and the NRL will probably have to get serious about rule changes. But Jordan Maclean shouldn't be the scapegoat for the NRL's inaction to date.

    Like most old school fans I'd love a return to the old days of one on one round the legs tackles. However the obsession in modern day football with shutting down the ball has basically made that techinque extinct save for the odd cover tackle scenario. Tacklers starting going high because players got too good at offloading and one on one low tackles were a free pass to an off load and a line break. How you change that I don't know. I do think that low tackles should definitely be rewarded with extra time in the hold down by the tackler to give the defence time to set, there has to be some incentive there. The other issue is that a low tackle makes it almost impossible to get to marker before the tackled player gets to their feet to play the ball. If there was some workable rule where the tackler could get to marker before the ball carrier is allowed to play the ball it would be great, but I don't think it is practical. The current situation where you grass someone low, then they try to jump straight up or pump the ground a couple of times and milk a penalty is an absolute joke.

    Good post by the way @jbb/james
     
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  15. jbb/james

    jbb/james Well-Known Member

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    have you noticed though how depending on where the tackled player is held determines how much latitude the tacklers get.
    If a player is held around the shoulders while on the ground and pushed down usually they get 3 or 4 goes at it, meaning the tackled player has to jostle and jostle for 3 or 4 attempts before a penalty is considered

    Once a player is tackled around the legs the player kicks out once, ok, twice and its a penalty every time

    Why is that
     
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  16. Shoe1

    Shoe1 Well-Known Member

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    Some good points C&C, but I think the NRL has foreseen such an injury, hence the ban on lifting tackles. The dodgy and variable enforcement is the problem.
     
  17. southsideeagle

    southsideeagle Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    In my opinion this has come about by the battle to control the speed of the play the ball. The storm players were trying to slow the play down and McKinnon was trying to do what he was told ie tuck the head. It went massively wrong.
    The referees have stopped the attacking team walking off the mark. That is good. If the referee calls held and the player is still on his feet the attacking team has the advantage on 2 fronts. Fast play the ball and markers not set. The question is how do you resolve this and not make it a game of "held"?
     
  18. Brissie Kid

    Brissie Kid Well-Known Member

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    Staggering >

     
  19. Ralphie

    Ralphie Well-Known Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    I have watched the replay many times and this was a classic hand between the legs lift beyond the horizontal tackle. McKinnon putting his head down is not as bad as Reynolds & Inglis did when they dived. He should be suspended for a lengthy period regardless of the injury.
     
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  20. HappilyManly

    HappilyManly MWTS Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    That explains his choice of the Dogs :cool:
     

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