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Refs to get shake up

Discussion in 'Rugby League Forum' started by Frogz, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. Frogz

    Frogz Don't mess with the goat, he has photos. Premium Member

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    Referees bosses Bill Harrigan and Stuart Raper could be in danger of being replaced by: Phil Rothfield
    From: The Daily Telegraph
    August 02, 2012 12:00AM

    NOT all great rugby league players make great coaches.
    The proof is in a long list of former legends including Wally Lewis, Tommy Raudonikis, Terry Lamb, Mick Cronin and Craig Young who all failed with the clipboard.

    Refereeing is the same.

    Bill Harrigan is generally regarded as the greatest referee of all time with 392 first grade games, 10 grand finals, 21 Origins and 25 Tests.

    But as a coach the performances of his "players" don't lie.

    The overall standard of refereeing this year has gone from bad to abysmal.

    And finally, the NRL is prepared to act.

    We can reveal the independent commission is to appoint a new national director of refereeing to oversee the entire structure from grassroots juniors to the NRL.

    The person will report straight to the CEO and be in charge of NRL referee coaches, oversee the weekly appointments and manage the structure of the refereeing ranks nationally at all levels.

    It's the first serious indication that Harrigan and Stuart Raper are in danger of losing their jobs.

    That decision will be made by the new director of refereeing when he is appointed after the grand final .

    The Daily Telegraph understands former referee Steve Clark and current referee Tony Archer, a former police prosecutor, have been mentioned for the new position. But the job will be advertised and could go to a senior figure outside of refereeing.

    Some of the most powerful and influential people in the game including Bob Fulton, Ricky Stuart and broadcaster Ray Hadley have been campaigning to get rid of Harrigan for months.

    On 2GB last weekend, Fulton launched an extraordinary attack on refereeing in the NRL.

    "The standard just isn't up to scratch - they are consistently poor," Fulton said. "The coaches have issues with decisions every week and I don't think any referee has improved under Harrigan.

    "John Grant and the commission need to take a long hard look at the management of referees.

    "If coaches don't perform with a club, they get moved on. Bill has got to take a bit of responsibility. Where does the buck stop. It stops with Bill Harrigan."

    The referees on the field and in the video box have been under massive pressure in club football and Origin since the start of the season. NSW lost this year's Origin series on the back of controversial tries to Greg Inglis (game one) and Justin Hodges (game three)

    Teams like the Cronulla Sharks are a real chance of missing the finals through poor refereeing more than their own ability.

    Incorrect decisions in the opening round against the Wests Tigers and last weekend against the Panthers have cost the Sharks four competition points.

    On both occasions referees were dropped after the games.

    Harrigan and Raper were the subject of an internal investigation by the NRL earlier in the season.

    It confirmed a split in the refereeing ranks over their support for the two coaches.

    Since the report was tabled, NRL management has recommended the appointment of the National director of refereeing.
     
  2. Frogz

    Frogz Don't mess with the goat, he has photos. Premium Member

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    Referees bosses Bill Harrigan and Stuart Raper could be in danger of being replaced by: Phil Rothfield
    From: The Daily Telegraph
    August 02, 2012 12:00AM

    NOT all great rugby league players make great coaches.
    The proof is in a long list of former legends including Wally Lewis, Tommy Raudonikis, Terry Lamb, Mick Cronin and Craig Young who all failed with the clipboard.

    Refereeing is the same.

    Bill Harrigan is generally regarded as the greatest referee of all time with 392 first grade games, 10 grand finals, 21 Origins and 25 Tests.

    But as a coach the performances of his "players" don't lie.

    The overall standard of refereeing this year has gone from bad to abysmal.

    And finally, the NRL is prepared to act.

    We can reveal the independent commission is to appoint a new national director of refereeing to oversee the entire structure from grassroots juniors to the NRL.

    The person will report straight to the CEO and be in charge of NRL referee coaches, oversee the weekly appointments and manage the structure of the refereeing ranks nationally at all levels.

    It's the first serious indication that Harrigan and Stuart Raper are in danger of losing their jobs.

    That decision will be made by the new director of refereeing when he is appointed after the grand final .

    The Daily Telegraph understands former referee Steve Clark and current referee Tony Archer, a former police prosecutor, have been mentioned for the new position. But the job will be advertised and could go to a senior figure outside of refereeing.

    Some of the most powerful and influential people in the game including Bob Fulton, Ricky Stuart and broadcaster Ray Hadley have been campaigning to get rid of Harrigan for months.

    On 2GB last weekend, Fulton launched an extraordinary attack on refereeing in the NRL.

    "The standard just isn't up to scratch - they are consistently poor," Fulton said. "The coaches have issues with decisions every week and I don't think any referee has improved under Harrigan.

    "John Grant and the commission need to take a long hard look at the management of referees.

    "If coaches don't perform with a club, they get moved on. Bill has got to take a bit of responsibility. Where does the buck stop. It stops with Bill Harrigan."

    The referees on the field and in the video box have been under massive pressure in club football and Origin since the start of the season. NSW lost this year's Origin series on the back of controversial tries to Greg Inglis (game one) and Justin Hodges (game three)

    Teams like the Cronulla Sharks are a real chance of missing the finals through poor refereeing more than their own ability.

    Incorrect decisions in the opening round against the Wests Tigers and last weekend against the Panthers have cost the Sharks four competition points.

    On both occasions referees were dropped after the games.

    Harrigan and Raper were the subject of an internal investigation by the NRL earlier in the season.

    It confirmed a split in the refereeing ranks over their support for the two coaches.

    Since the report was tabled, NRL management has recommended the appointment of the National director of refereeing.
     
  3. jbb/james

    jbb/james Well-Known Member

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    getting rid of gallop and harrigan in the same year, will go down as a major turning point in the history of RL. The code could not make 2 better strategic moves in 1 year. A great Tv deal and Manly going back to back and its perfect really
     
  4. jbb/james

    jbb/james Well-Known Member

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    getting rid of gallop and harrigan in the same year, will go down as a major turning point in the history of RL. The code could not make 2 better strategic moves in 1 year. A great Tv deal and Manly going back to back and its perfect really
     
  5. Dan

    Dan Administrator Staff Member Administrator 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Ha the first line reads like it will be Phil Rothfield who is replacing them. That would be interesting.

    This may be the only time you see me write in support of the referees and it's going to include a bit of a long bow, but I am referee coordinator in our local Oz Tag comp, i know such illustrious heights :) The biggest problem I face is "How do you actually train the referees?"

    You can get out there and give them scenario based instruction, but that differs from when they are refereeing a game and in the heat of the moment, you can't just ask players to show up to a referee training clinic and expect them to play a full game and play it in a true competitive spirit.
    The only way that referees get better is through true experience.

    In saying that the way that it has been approached by Raper and Harrigan has been wrong. Whilst it is important for the referees to support each other, making excuses in the face of clear evidence helps no one, rather than bridging the gap and having the refs seen as human and equals, the current leadership has actually widened the game, making the referees to be above the players, which is just wrong. They are there to facilitate the game, not to run it and dictate it.

    A lot of this could have been so easily fixed by Harrigan accepting that some of the calls they make have been wrong and apologising rather than just dropping the ref and at times making weak excuses which just increased the frustration.

    The IC is making the correct choice in looking at the system across all levels of the sport, there is clearly a failure by the NRL in attracting new referees and quality ones, or recognising the correct talent and correct people for the job.

    The system is actually fairly rigorous for raising referees but there is still a lot of arbitrary decisions that go into it. I am not sure how you fix that because you can only really test them on
    1) their knowledge and
    2) Assess them practically

    The issue here I guess comes down to who is doing the practical assessment, if that person is flawed in some of their refereeing, or knowledge, then it stands to reason that, that will be passed on to the person they are assessing.

    It is also very difficult to assess someone performance as a referee from the sideline with a clipboard.

    If the decision were up to me, I would have a player review system as part of the assessment for bringing up referees, so along with a written and practical assessment of their skills over x amount of games, I would also introduce a system where the captains or players in a team for those assessment games or general across a season actual score the referee on certain items.

    After all it is the players who will play under that referee, and whilst some players will never be pleased with every decision, you make, this at least gives you a picture of how the teams and players in general react and feel about that referee, this way you can really start to get the best of the best and the ones that have earned respect at every level.

    Finally, one of the biggest issues that any referee faces with players is that the players understanding of the rules is incorrect or different from the actual rules. As a referee you have to study the rules and read lots of different information on scenarios and clarifications on the rules, the learning process is constant, where there is a failure is in communicating that to players, and that is at all levels, whilst the players understanding will never be at the level of the referees, they need to make sure they are communicating any clarifications, rule changes or interpretations to the teams and they need to be running clinics and training days with each team throughout the year, that way they will start to get a better understanding for everyone and it will help to build a better relationship between players and refs.

    /rant
     
  6. Dan

    Dan Administrator Staff Member Administrator 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Ha the first line reads like it will be Phil Rothfield who is replacing them. That would be interesting.

    This may be the only time you see me write in support of the referees and it's going to include a bit of a long bow, but I am referee coordinator in our local Oz Tag comp, i know such illustrious heights :) The biggest problem I face is "How do you actually train the referees?"

    You can get out there and give them scenario based instruction, but that differs from when they are refereeing a game and in the heat of the moment, you can't just ask players to show up to a referee training clinic and expect them to play a full game and play it in a true competitive spirit.
    The only way that referees get better is through true experience.

    In saying that the way that it has been approached by Raper and Harrigan has been wrong. Whilst it is important for the referees to support each other, making excuses in the face of clear evidence helps no one, rather than bridging the gap and having the refs seen as human and equals, the current leadership has actually widened the game, making the referees to be above the players, which is just wrong. They are there to facilitate the game, not to run it and dictate it.

    A lot of this could have been so easily fixed by Harrigan accepting that some of the calls they make have been wrong and apologising rather than just dropping the ref and at times making weak excuses which just increased the frustration.

    The IC is making the correct choice in looking at the system across all levels of the sport, there is clearly a failure by the NRL in attracting new referees and quality ones, or recognising the correct talent and correct people for the job.

    The system is actually fairly rigorous for raising referees but there is still a lot of arbitrary decisions that go into it. I am not sure how you fix that because you can only really test them on
    1) their knowledge and
    2) Assess them practically

    The issue here I guess comes down to who is doing the practical assessment, if that person is flawed in some of their refereeing, or knowledge, then it stands to reason that, that will be passed on to the person they are assessing.

    It is also very difficult to assess someone performance as a referee from the sideline with a clipboard.

    If the decision were up to me, I would have a player review system as part of the assessment for bringing up referees, so along with a written and practical assessment of their skills over x amount of games, I would also introduce a system where the captains or players in a team for those assessment games or general across a season actual score the referee on certain items.

    After all it is the players who will play under that referee, and whilst some players will never be pleased with every decision, you make, this at least gives you a picture of how the teams and players in general react and feel about that referee, this way you can really start to get the best of the best and the ones that have earned respect at every level.

    Finally, one of the biggest issues that any referee faces with players is that the players understanding of the rules is incorrect or different from the actual rules. As a referee you have to study the rules and read lots of different information on scenarios and clarifications on the rules, the learning process is constant, where there is a failure is in communicating that to players, and that is at all levels, whilst the players understanding will never be at the level of the referees, they need to make sure they are communicating any clarifications, rule changes or interpretations to the teams and they need to be running clinics and training days with each team throughout the year, that way they will start to get a better understanding for everyone and it will help to build a better relationship between players and refs.

    /rant
     
  7. WAMF

    WAMF Well-Known Member

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    Jebus Dan. When does it come out in paperback? :)
     
  8. WAMF

    WAMF Well-Known Member

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    Jebus Dan. When does it come out in paperback? :)
     
  9. Dan

    Dan Administrator Staff Member Administrator 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    hehe maybe I should submit it as an application for the job :)
     
  10. Dan

    Dan Administrator Staff Member Administrator 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    hehe maybe I should submit it as an application for the job :)
     
  11. jbb/james

    jbb/james Well-Known Member

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    sorry about another novel but i feel strongly about the current ref situation

    The current management within the refs is all wrong. While they are a separate entity of sorts to the teams and the competition, they are an integral cog in the overall product, and not a separate cog as the current model is portrayed. Both need the other but at times the refs just miss that point entirely

    With rule changes on the agenda year after year, and interpretations of those rules adjusted weekly, monthly and yearly is it any wonder that many parts of the overall product are left feeling disheartened by the support they receive in the collaboration

    Almost yearly we have a crack down on rules that have been conveniently forgotten by the refs until media backlash jolts them into over reaction. As a result a few sacrificial lambs are sent to slaughter by the very people who neglected the problem. A club memo before the crack down seems to absolve the res of all sins created by the refs themselves. Its no longer good enough that a try can be scored using a decoy and experts, fans and even the refs can not come close to agreeing, even reluctantly , due the overall confusion, and complexity of the rules and there apparent interpretation. The current management has failed to address this, and have lied and twisted the rules at times that they have damaged the product they have been trusted to move forward

    The refs will always be the meat in the proverbial scapegoat sand which and management firstly need to embrace this, as this is out of there control to a point. But what is under there control

    Firstly when refs have meetings about a certain play and the ref group is split in the decision, alarm bells have to start ringing.This is reported way to often to be a positive for the game. Punishing certain teams for there own inept rulings over a period of time is not a fix, its damage to the product and the important relationships that need to be fostered in order to move forward, This can be addressed by not dropping the bundle in the first place or staying strong as a unit and ignoring the media clap trap. Both strategies would require strong , consistent and confident management regardless of the path they take. Buckling to either is weak as piss and reflects management, not the refs.

    When a ref walks onto the field with a pre determined analysis of certain players are they just forgetting what the basic job of a ref is, to judge what you see. Its the match review system and the judiciary to adjudicate some things the ref miss, and if a ref is watching certain players more than others its human nature to not give them the benefit of the doubt they give others. The coaching by the refs on players is way out of line and shows a commitment to palm off there own responsibilities . This is an epic fail by any organisation that yearns respect and needs to be seen as being impartial.

    Coaches are a feisty bunch and impossible to please, but when you have many coaches admitting that the refs are always right even when Stevie Wonder can see they are not is a massive concern.

    Many of the refs recently have adopted the arrogant unapproachable attitude perfected by bill, and while i agree the players have got out of control, who allowed that to happen ?It should never have been allowed to creep into the game. I may be wrong but a lot of that crept in the game when super league was around when players became gordie and thommo instead of 8 and 6. Who swung into power back then for the refs

    No doubt Bill will go out screaming and paint himself as a victim if he is shown the door. At that time no one will be left with any doubt the refs can finally move forward and rejoin the game as an important part and not the right part
     
  12. jbb/james

    jbb/james Well-Known Member

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    sorry about another novel but i feel strongly about the current ref situation

    The current management within the refs is all wrong. While they are a separate entity of sorts to the teams and the competition, they are an integral cog in the overall product, and not a separate cog as the current model is portrayed. Both need the other but at times the refs just miss that point entirely

    With rule changes on the agenda year after year, and interpretations of those rules adjusted weekly, monthly and yearly is it any wonder that many parts of the overall product are left feeling disheartened by the support they receive in the collaboration

    Almost yearly we have a crack down on rules that have been conveniently forgotten by the refs until media backlash jolts them into over reaction. As a result a few sacrificial lambs are sent to slaughter by the very people who neglected the problem. A club memo before the crack down seems to absolve the res of all sins created by the refs themselves. Its no longer good enough that a try can be scored using a decoy and experts, fans and even the refs can not come close to agreeing, even reluctantly , due the overall confusion, and complexity of the rules and there apparent interpretation. The current management has failed to address this, and have lied and twisted the rules at times that they have damaged the product they have been trusted to move forward

    The refs will always be the meat in the proverbial scapegoat sand which and management firstly need to embrace this, as this is out of there control to a point. But what is under there control

    Firstly when refs have meetings about a certain play and the ref group is split in the decision, alarm bells have to start ringing.This is reported way to often to be a positive for the game. Punishing certain teams for there own inept rulings over a period of time is not a fix, its damage to the product and the important relationships that need to be fostered in order to move forward, This can be addressed by not dropping the bundle in the first place or staying strong as a unit and ignoring the media clap trap. Both strategies would require strong , consistent and confident management regardless of the path they take. Buckling to either is weak as piss and reflects management, not the refs.

    When a ref walks onto the field with a pre determined analysis of certain players are they just forgetting what the basic job of a ref is, to judge what you see. Its the match review system and the judiciary to adjudicate some things the ref miss, and if a ref is watching certain players more than others its human nature to not give them the benefit of the doubt they give others. The coaching by the refs on players is way out of line and shows a commitment to palm off there own responsibilities . This is an epic fail by any organisation that yearns respect and needs to be seen as being impartial.

    Coaches are a feisty bunch and impossible to please, but when you have many coaches admitting that the refs are always right even when Stevie Wonder can see they are not is a massive concern.

    Many of the refs recently have adopted the arrogant unapproachable attitude perfected by bill, and while i agree the players have got out of control, who allowed that to happen ?It should never have been allowed to creep into the game. I may be wrong but a lot of that crept in the game when super league was around when players became gordie and thommo instead of 8 and 6. Who swung into power back then for the refs

    No doubt Bill will go out screaming and paint himself as a victim if he is shown the door. At that time no one will be left with any doubt the refs can finally move forward and rejoin the game as an important part and not the right part
     
  13. Dan

    Dan Administrator Staff Member Administrator 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    For decisions like the obstruction rule that changes year on year. I think it is high time they consulted the RLPA and get them to come up with what they think is obstruction and what isn't if the players can agree then the refs just police it that way.

    The really big thing that is missing in the entire situation is consultation with the players, they are dictating how the rules should be to the players without consulting them on the reality of playing the game, to those rules and whether that ruling effects them
     
  14. Dan

    Dan Administrator Staff Member Administrator 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    For decisions like the obstruction rule that changes year on year. I think it is high time they consulted the RLPA and get them to come up with what they think is obstruction and what isn't if the players can agree then the refs just police it that way.

    The really big thing that is missing in the entire situation is consultation with the players, they are dictating how the rules should be to the players without consulting them on the reality of playing the game, to those rules and whether that ruling effects them
     
  15. jbb/james

    jbb/james Well-Known Member

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    Maybe that should be the case Dan, I havnt really formed an opinion on that as such,but it makes sense to involve all the vested interests to a point, but it wont happen when the refs are ruled by King Bill.
     
  16. jbb/james

    jbb/james Well-Known Member

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    Maybe that should be the case Dan, I havnt really formed an opinion on that as such,but it makes sense to involve all the vested interests to a point, but it wont happen when the refs are ruled by King Bill.
     
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  17. Dan

    Dan Administrator Staff Member Administrator 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Agreed completely. If and when they bring someone new it it will be vital for them to consult with the players on how they see the rules should be interpreted as they will be the ones most effected by it.

    It will need to be someone who is able to collate and make sense of all that data though
     
  18. Dan

    Dan Administrator Staff Member Administrator 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Agreed completely. If and when they bring someone new it it will be vital for them to consult with the players on how they see the rules should be interpreted as they will be the ones most effected by it.

    It will need to be someone who is able to collate and make sense of all that data though
     
  19. jbb/james

    jbb/james Well-Known Member

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    yeah it will be a big job initially, as there are many considerations and the candidate will need to foster relationships and instill confidence to buy the time required to implement a long term plan.This plan as you state will require plenty plenty data ( lol) My mrs is a data freek so that is partly a home joke. Most will agree that lots needs to change so they should be able to expect support
     
  20. jbb/james

    jbb/james Well-Known Member

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    yeah it will be a big job initially, as there are many considerations and the candidate will need to foster relationships and instill confidence to buy the time required to implement a long term plan.This plan as you state will require plenty plenty data ( lol) My mrs is a data freek so that is partly a home joke. Most will agree that lots needs to change so they should be able to expect support
     

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