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Orford fails to make origin - Again.

Discussion in 'Rugby League Forum' started by Fluffy, Jun 7, 2005.

  1. Fluffy

    Fluffy Well-Known Member

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    NSW selectors yesterday decided yet again to leave Matt Orford out of Origin. After Dropping Brett Kimmorley after a shocking first origin Orford's time had come. At 27 years old in the prime of his career there was nothing stopping him being selected bar his percieved lack of ability at that level. To make matters worse he position was given to a 5/8, not even a half back specialist. Trent Barret was always going to be in the side but Orford lost his spot to Anasta moving into 5/8 and pushing Barret to half.

    Orford may well be on the market next year at a reportadly extraordinarily high cost for a non rep player. How can a player be worth 450K when he behind Andrew Johns after 1 game back? Some will say that he hasnt got the forward pack to excell at this game. If that was really the problem then wouldnt selectors want him behing an origin pack with its increased ability? And why does this only affect his chances when 2 other backs are in the current origin squads? Have a look at the players around him, his "weak" pack has 2 former rep players but its the backline that really has the good with 3 of the other 6 backs having recent representative careers. He has Scott Hill outside him who compliments Orfords game greatly, covering a lot of the shortfalls, Matt King running hard and fast out wide and Billy Slater Zipping up the middle as another option. Most halves would look good with those backs running off them.

    Is Orford a superstar? No. He lacks the allround game to make it to the top. His defence is average and can be quite woeful at times. He like most half backs gets flustered when on the back foot or put under a bit of pressure. He makes many bad descisions, has many errors in his game and without stars like Slater and King running into gaps and telling him where to pass the ball he wouldnt be able to be a game breaker.

    Is he the answer at Manly - No.

    We need someone to compliment Monahan's and Witt's games. What we lack is options for our halves. We have a game based on 1 up, no support, no dummy runners, very few angles and the rare inside runner. Who is to blame? Well the coaching staff have a plan, so far it has us sitting in outright second after half a season so blame isnt a word id use, but they hold the resposibility of game plans. We have the best attacking dummy half in the league, why isnt he utilised properly? Its the style of attack, we play flat, ready for the couter attack. It is effective and achieves its purpose.

    Improving our attack.

    Coming 5th in attack scoring the majority of our tries inside the oppositions 20, many people feel we need to improve. Well here are some ideas with the current roster. Getting Flash up there will also give us a great boost.

    1. Brett Stewart, one of the quickest players with ball in hand, just needs space. He needs to watch Billy Slater on Sunday and do his best to replicate. When Dunley gets the ball he should move in directly behind him and take off as Dunley does. Run the gap on the inside and call for the ball. Stewy should be running up the inside and make 5 - 10 dummy runs a game. if not he is being wasted.

    2. Sam Harris. The guy can throw a pass from right to left. What we should be doing is have Sam run at the line with BK/Beaver/Watmough running an angle back towards him at the hole that he will create due to his size. Meanwhile Witt or Monas stands outside the runner for the second man play. Mix it up between the 3.

    3. Less one out running. Andrew Johns and Peter Sterling's love child cant do much when there is only one out running. We need players in motion on both the outside and inside of the player with the ball. It draws the defence into the centre creating more room out wide.

    We have seen Monas ability to attack last year, with 1.5 try assists per game. This year the player just arnt moving to put the opposition in 2 minds. Witt is still finding his feet and gets shut down easily in the same way. Some of our best looking tries this year have come from when the players are moving and giving the halves options and keeping the opposition players guessing, creating more time to make the right decision.

    So is Orford worth 450K at Manly?

    No way in hell. save cash and buy a 300K centre. It will be much better value.
     
  2. Crushercleal

    Crushercleal Active Member

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    Excellent comments Fluff. I agree with them all:
    1. I'm a HUGE fan of B Stewart. Definitely the next Billy Slater. Get him as much involved in the attack as possible.
    2. I like the idea of BK, Beaver and Choc running of inside/angled passes. It makes them much more dangerous.
    3. Save 1/2 back money and buy a quality centre for sure. Would I prefer Orford to Monnas? Yes (ability-wise). Is he worth spending heaps more money on? NO.
     
  3. byso

    byso Well-Known Member

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    I agree with them too. He isn't the messiah imo.

    Mata is away for 4 days, so you wont be getting a "****s and giggles" response from him :lol:
     
  4. PEPSI

    PEPSI Active Member

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    thanks for the Fluff report, who do we agree with ? Fluffy or Bozo/Dessie/Tooves,,,, ill think about this one for about 3.5 milliseconds... have alook at the for and against, Storm have outscored us and conceded way less points. Suggest the Broncos / Queensland / Australia drop Locky as he has the highest tackle miss % in the league.

    Halves are there to create points. Im not saying Orford is the answer, hopefully a couple of quality centres will allow Monaghs to show a bit more creativity out wide. .
     
  5. byso

    byso Well-Known Member

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    Pepsi what other half would you have at manly other than Orford (its obvious we wont get him now)?
     
  6. PJ

    PJ Well-Known Member

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    Maybe if we held onto Orford in the first place instead of getting an overpriced Kimmorley we wouldn't have to be going through all this.
    It's funny no one has mentioned bringing back Cliffy, it would be interesting to see if he could still light up in the dressing sheds after a game...
     
  7. PJ

    PJ Well-Known Member

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    What about Stacey Jones? maybe good for a couple more years
     
  8. PEPSI

    PEPSI Active Member

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    answering Bysos question above re who we get now that orford looks likely to sign with the storm

    Byso, thats the six million dollar question, take Orford out of the equation and im not sure. There is no dramas having a "non ball playing" half which is what id call Monaghs, but thats not a criticism, id say the same about Tooves, but he did have one Clifford Lyons next to him. Note as soon as Tooves lost cliffy, he some how found himslef at hooker pretty quickly!

    I still would "aim" to Moove Monaghs to Hooker, his defence, short passing and kicking is perfectly suited. Id then wright a cheque to one Mr B Anasta and asking him to join Witts in the halves. now that is a half/5/8 hooker combo that wont just make the semis, but potentially win us a premiership.

    If Anasta isnt available, Monaghs will probably have to play half this year regardless, but this should be the long term plan regardless.

    can i also state, as a few of us have been labled monaghs haters which is completely wrong, i admire his passion, his guts, and that he gives 100% every minute he spends on the field for manly. I simply believe that to go all the way you have to have one oeither the best halves or 5/8s in the game .
     
  9. lasvegas

    lasvegas Member

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    already going to france,fluffy orford has been picked a number of times for SOO but pulled out for injury.johns is the best player i have ever seen so its no shame to be behind him.lets also take into account he is 25 and played 49 first grade games with two teams that struggled ,hardly great pedigree.but i along with you hope he can improve but i never want to hear a ****in peep out of any of you guys if this fails ok.
     
  10. gomanly

    gomanly Member

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    alot of good points fluff, i still think orford would be great addition to the eagles, just not at 450k but around the 300k mark. the whole point though is that were are a team and no one player can solve every problem overnight, were deffinetly on the right track to success.
     
  11. lasvegas

    lasvegas Member

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    also forget anasta ,easts will have a new 5/8 next year
     
  12. Canteen Worker

    Canteen Worker Well-Known Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    The half in many wasy determines the style that a team adopts in attack. He also drives the team around the paddock.

    Manly at the moment play one off and dummy half running in three quarters of the field and then rely on wide passes from Monas and Witt in opponents quarters. Their kicking game is average though we have scored some good tries and pinned opponents in their in-goal often.

    Monas tends to act in desperation and there are times that we seem to lack a plan - we are playing ad-lib and waiting for someone to do something special - a la Andrew Walker. We could afford that when we had Cliffy.

    Orford and the top notch halves seem to have time and add options to play in this part of the field. My only other comment is that we lack the centres to make the long balls and cut outs etc pay for us.
     
  13. Fluffy

    Fluffy Well-Known Member

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    Really you should never have a complaint ever again about any player picked in the team if you want to take that road. You should be saying week in and week out what a great 17 Des has picked this week, couldnt have picked a better one.
     
  14. lasvegas

    lasvegas Member

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    cw ,it would be interesting this year to see how many kicks we have scored off that are ricochets.
     
  15. byso

    byso Well-Known Member

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    Pepsi thanks for giving a reasonable obvective opinion. (Not the poke in the eye stuff others like to run with to get a point across)

    My point is, that we WON'T get Orford so Monas is our next best option. I really dont understand why you rate Anasta so highly. He has been ordinary this year the Dogs have been relying on him and Shifty to have a crack and nothing happens. Even Graham Hughes is bitterly dissapointed in them.

    I agree with your Cliffy/Tooves statement.

    But I think Witt/Monas are starting to combine well and hopefully Monas will improve now this crap is forgotten.

    Monas kicking game improved 10x on friday and Witt was excellent. There defence is good and there attack looked a little more structured over the last couple of weeks. Granted not as structured as Melbourne. But as a team Manly are better under Monas reign Manly has been more succesfull than the storm for the last 21 rounds.

    I'm over Orford we were probably never gunna get him!
     
  16. Canteen Worker

    Canteen Worker Well-Known Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Vegas is right that we have scored a lot of tries this year from lucky ricochets.

    What is telling to me is how many times we have missed opportunities in opposition quarters too. Monas has too many brain explosions for my liking and we panic. Could be lack of outside options but also his composure under pressure, which is what many people have questions. Not his guts or determination though.
     
  17. PEPSI

    PEPSI Active Member

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    a lot of better judges than me rate Anasta, i guess he has had a reasonable pack to play behind the last 2 seasons.!!!
     
  18. Fluffy

    Fluffy Well-Known Member

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    Orford has never been number 1 pick, King has made the SOO training squad and was looking good until injury.

    Orford has not got the runs on the board either, he is older, will be 28 before he could play for manly if signed. If he was the messiah dont you think by now he would have forced himself into origin?? I certainly would like to think so.

    I have no idea how you can justify paying 450K for him.

    Teams that win premierships dont pay overs for players, they get a good all round roster with properly played players, not one on superstar money with no superstar experience just heresay.

    The knights have you best ever player in superstar money with superstar experience, and how many game have they won whilst he has been playing??
     
  19. PEPSI

    PEPSI Active Member

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    Really you should never have a complaint ever again about any player picked in the team if you want to take that road. You should be saying week in and week out what a great 17 Des has picked this week, couldnt have picked a better one.
    [/quote]


    well actually i have never ever complained about any player picked in the team Fluff! I have on more than one occaision state that King is not playing to his abilty and on some occaisions not look like he is putting in. Im guessing that Dessie may agree since he spends so much time on the bench.

    Currently we are playing with the best 17 or 18 available for this season.

    What i am saying is that many better judges than me, or should i say us, who feel there may be some better players out there for future seasons who have a better chance of winning a premiership, and i simply take more notice of their judgement more than mine!
     
  20. Fluffy

    Fluffy Well-Known Member

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    so your a sheep with no opinion of your own, you just listen to the experts and do what your told??
     

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