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Manly's letter to John Grant

Discussion in 'Rugby League Forum' started by Brissie Kid, Jul 27, 2013.

  1. Brissie Kid

    Brissie Kid Well-Known Member

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    They are 100% right about 2002 being Manly and not Northern Eagles.
     
  2. eagle66

    eagle66 Well-Known Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    A well written letter. Confirming what we all know. I am impressed with the suggestion of how to deal with the records of players before, during and after Northern Eagles.
     
  3. Kiwi Eagle

    Kiwi Eagle Moderator Staff Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    If we did get the 2002 records back where would that put Beaver in terms of games and tries ?

    Just looked it up, played 22 scored 11, so I think that would put him up over the 300 games wise
     
  4. SeaEagleRock8

    SeaEagleRock8 Sea Eagle Lach Staff Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    I'm glad the club has sent something formal about this. It is a grey area, as Deans says, but common sense and fairness require the ARLC to accept Manly's submission. If it is refused, the reasons will be most interesting.
     
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  5. mickqld

    mickqld Sack Greenslime 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Another leftover from Galoops incompetence that should have been cleared up. Obviously 2002 was Manly Sea Eagles not the N.E.
    It's a reasonable request considering all the records of super league clubs as well as other teams who changed their names. All Manly players who played with Manly in 1999 and/or 2002 are obviously Manly players. All the Bears players who jumped on and off during that 2000/2001 period are not. Simples.
     
  6. SeaEagleRock8

    SeaEagleRock8 Sea Eagle Lach Staff Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    It's actually another leftover from Super League.
     
  7. CAMBO

    CAMBO New Member

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    Great letter by Phil Dean

    A couple of things
    1) I'm glad the 2002 season was address it irks me in regards to blokes like choc who made their debut in 2002.
    2) if they can count lockyers and other super league games and tests why can't they give beaver the same respect.
     
  8. Kiwi Eagle

    Kiwi Eagle Moderator Staff Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Just on the super league tests, I don't think they do count them do they ?
     
  9. Brissie Kid

    Brissie Kid Well-Known Member

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    Good question! I asked Mr Google and all I could find was this from 2010.

    It's pretty silly though. Why do they recognise club games from 1997 Super League? That wasn't an ARL/NRL competition that began with 1908. Why not count Beaver's games and tries in trials if they are going to count Broncos 1997 games in another competition? WHole thing is a mess. Or a joke.
     
  10. MissKate

    MissKate Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    This was my point in another thread, all teams/player records should be treated the same way, if Beaver's record is not being honoured then neither should lockyer's or el masri's point scoring record etc etc. however the fact that super league tests are not counted but super leagues games are just shows what a total joke the nrl stats really are
     
  11. Budgewoi Eagle

    Budgewoi Eagle In for the long haul. Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    When can we expect a reply?
     
  12. Kiwi Eagle

    Kiwi Eagle Moderator Staff Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    I've got no issue at all with Super League 1st grade games being counted in, essentially they were still exactly the same teams just playing in a different competition

    The Super League tests and Tri Series Origin matches are a different kettle of fish because there was an Australian team playing and also an Origin series which was counted as official

    Technically the Warriors are a new club from what they started as, as the Auckland Warriors company went bankrupt in 1999 and they changed over to NZ Warriors as a trading name
     
  13. Dan

    Dan Administrator Staff Member Administrator 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    It just cant be one rule for some and different for others. If NE doesnt count then neither does super league those teams didnt exist technically
     
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  14. Shoe1

    Shoe1 Well-Known Member

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    The letter is good, I would take it a step further. The northern eagles played with manly's nrl licence. Norths wasn't offered one when the cull of clubs occurred.

    Manly and norths both fielded reserve grade teams for the 2 years of the venture. Manly at brookie, norths at gosford and north sydney. Players from manly who got promoted to 1st grade like choc and king from manly should be manly players. Players who got promoted from norths reserves like orford and maybe Roy should be counted as norths players.
     
  15. Daddycool08

    Daddycool08 Well-Known Member

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    Knowing the NRL - never comes to mind.
     
  16. Jatz Crackers

    Jatz Crackers Moderator Staff Member

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    To save from using the link see letter below:

    Dear Mr Grant,
    I am writing to you to seek a formal determination from the Australian Rugby League Commission ("Commission") regarding the official playing records recognised by the game of Rugby League in Australia (the "Game") for players who played for both the Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles and the Northern Eagles.

    The Manly-Warringah Rugby League Football Club Ltd ("Football Club") and the Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles Ltd ("Sea Eagles") have long adopted the position that the playing records of any player who played for the Northern Eagles AND who played for the Sea Eagles either immediately prior (1999) or immediately after (2002) (or both) shall reflect the games played during the Northern Eagles years (2000 & 2001) as games played for the Sea Eagles.

    On this basis, we recognise Steve Menzies as a1 club player, having played all his 349 First Grade games for the Manly Sea Eagles. Similarly, the record for the most number of first grade tries by a Sea Eagles player is 180 tries scored by Steve Menzies between 1993 and 2008.

    To this day, one of the most celebrated things in our great Game is the 1 club player and with his incredible record of 349 games, Steve Menzies should be held up by the Game as one of the greatest examples of this most revered trait. All the more so in light of the acknowledged fact that Steve Menzies turned his back on a number of significantly higher contract offers throughout his NRL career to remain loyal to the Sea Eagles. Instead, through no fault of his own, he does not receive the recognition from the Game that he deserves as a 1 club player.

    It disappoints and saddens us greatly whenever we see Steve Menzies' impeccable record being sullied by his omission from any stats regarding 1 club players or when he does not rightly appear at the top of the list for the most tries scored by a player for a single club. We are similarly disappointed by any suggestion that our current Co-Captain, Jason King, who made his debut in 2001 for the Northern Eagles, is anything other than a 1 club player.

    We appreciate this is a unique situation and somewhat of a grey area and we accept that the Northern Eagles years cannot simply be erased from the history of the Game. However, it is our view that for the limited purpose of Players' official playing records, it is open for the Game to acknowledge that for seasons 2000 and 2001, the Sea Eagles did participate in the NRL competition, albeit not in their own right, but in conjunction with the North Sydney Bears.

    We believe this approach provides a reasonable and logical basis upon which the playing records for 2000 and 2001 of the players who had a nexus with the Sea Eagles either immediately prior (1999) or immediately after (2002) can be combined with their playing records for the Sea Eagles in other years allowing players such as Steve Menzies and Jason King to be rightly regarded as a 1 club player.

    Ultimately, it is our firm view, and one that we believe that the Commission should endorse, that the records of the Players should not be adversely impacted by the decision of the Sea Eagles to participate in 2000 and 2001 in conjunction with the Bears, particularly in light of the fact this situation only existed for a very short period of 2 seasons before the Sea Eagles resumed participating in the competition in their own right as they had previously done since 1947.

    Please find enclosed a copy of the 2011 Annual Report of the Manly-Warringah Rugby League Football Club Limited which sets outs our Club Records on pages 12 to 16. The bottom of page 15 sets out the basis on which we have allocated player numbers to all Manly First Grade players since 1947. We draw particular attention to the approach we have adopted for 2000 and 2001 and note that under this approach, we do not deem a Northern Eagles player such as Mark O'Meley as ever being a Manly player as he did not have a nexus with Manly in 1999 or 2002. Similarly, Ben Walker and Matt Orford are not considered to have been Manly players until they re-joined the Club in 2003 and 2006 respectively as they did not immediately continue with Manly in 2002 after playing with the Northern Eagles in 2001.

    In addition to the matter raised above, we also wish to highlight another issue with the Game's official records in relation to the Northern Eagles.

    Official stats published and endorsed by the NRL have long held the view that the Northern Eagles club existed for 3 seasons (2000, 2001 and 2002). We do not accept that this is correct insofar as it relates to season 2002.

    The entity that entered a team in the NRL competition in 2000 and 2001 as the "Northern Eagles" was the Manly-Norths Rugby League Club Pty Ltd (ABN: 44 090 093 833).

    The entity that entered a team in the NRL competition in 2002 was the Manly-Warringah District Rugby League Football Club Limited (ABN: 34 003 348 436). This is the same entity that entered teams as the Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles from 1947 to 1999 and from 2003 until the present (now renamed Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles Limited ABN: 34 003 348 436).

    The only difference between 2002 and all those other years is that in 2002, the NRL insisted that the team be entered in the competition with the trading name "Northern Eagles", not "Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles". This trading name, however, does not alter the fact that it was the same Club in 2002 as it was in 1947-1999 and 2003-2012 that entered the team and was solely responsible for all the income and expenditure in relation to the participation of the team in the competition.

    The Manly-Norths Rugby League Club Pty Ltd (ABN: 44 090 093 833) was placed into liquidation in November 2001 and did not trade at any stage in 2002. We note that Canterbury Bankstown entered a team under the trading name "Sydney Bulldogs" in 1995 and the Balmain Club used the trading name "Sydney Tigers" in 1995 and 1996, yet there is no suggestion that these different trading names constituted new Clubs for either Canterbury or Balmain. Similarly, the Eastern Suburbs Club have used a number of different trading names over the years, including "Eastern Suburbs Roosters", "Sydney City Roosters" and the current "Sydney Roosters" but clearly it is, and always has been, the one single club that has existed since 1908. Put simply, the Manly Club, playing as the "Northern Eagles" in 2002 was no different to these examples of other clubs using different trading names at different times in their history.

    Irrespective of whether the Commission supports our view on the playing records for 2000 and 2001, we feel there is absolutely no basis for the playing records of our players for season 2002 to be attributed to any club but the Sea Eagles.

    This is of particular importance for the playing record of another of our current, longstanding, 200 plus game, 1 club players, Anthony Watmough. Anthony debuted for our Club in 2002. He has therefore only ever played first grade for teams entered in the NRL competition by the entity now known as Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles Limited (ABN: 34 003 348 436). Yet on the NRL website, his "Career Stats" reflect 8 more games played than his "Club Stats" because his games in 2002 are wrongly attributed to the Northern Eagles, not the Sea Eagles.

    The above 2 issues have long been a bone of contention for our Club and our Members and fans. We appreciate the Manly Sea Eagles and Northern Eagles situation is quite unique, even vis a vis the other joint ventures in our Game as they still continue to operate whereas the Sea Eagles returned in their own right after only 2 seasons of the Northern Eagles joint venture.

    We accept that it is a grey area and that not everyone will necessarily agree with our view hence why we believe the Commission needs to make a formal determination on these matters. It should be remembered that the Game appears to have no difficulty in taking an inclusive and broad view of the playing records of players who played in the Super League competition in 1997 (eg Darren Lockyer), notwithstanding that those matches were in an entirely separate competition to the premiership that has existed since 1908.

    We submit that the Commission and the Game should follow that precedent and take a similar broad view in relation to the playing records of players who played for both the Manly Sea Eagles and the Northern Eagles so that just as Darren Lockyer's magnificent record is not unnecessarily punctuated by an asterisk regarding Super League, nor should Steve Menzies' or Jason King's record as a loyal 1 club player with Manly be compromised by the Northern Eagles situation which was not in any way something of their making.

    In view of the above, we therefore seek a formal determination from the Commission that:

    1. As a basic matter of fact, the Northern Eagles Club only existed for 2 seasons, being 2000 and 2001 and that it was the Sea Eagles club that entered the team known as the "Northern Eagles" in season 2002 and all official records for that season shall reflect that fact.

    2. The Commission and the Game adopts the position that the playing records of any player who played for the Northern Eagles AND who played for the Sea Eagles either immediately prior (1999) or immediately after (2002) (or both) shall reflect the games played during the Northern Eagles years (2000 & 2001) as games played for the Sea Eagles and that all stats from those games shall be attributed to the player's playing record with the Sea Eagles.

    and that henceforth, all official records and stats of the Game produced, published or endorsed by the Commission or the NRL shall only be in accordance with the Commission's determination and that any statistician or historian wishing to be acknowledged or endorsed by the Commission or the NRL as such shall be obliged to adopt the Commission's determination with respect to these matters.

    I look forward to the Commission's urgent and favourable consideration of these matters.

    Yours sincerely,
    Philip Dean
    Company Secretary
    Manly-Warringah Rugby League Football Club Limited
     
  17. Brissie Kid

    Brissie Kid Well-Known Member

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    How can the NRL keep a straight face passing off two joint venture teams playing each other as a commemoration of two dead clubs that played in 1963? StG-Illw are St George when it suits the NRL and their statistics.


     
  18. Dan

    Dan Administrator Staff Member Administrator 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    Though it is fair to say the joint venture adopted most of the dragons traits....I.e. choking
     
  19. Hamster Huey

    Hamster Huey Space Invader Premium Member

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    It is interesting that the NRL allowed the Dragons JV to operate under the 'Est.1921' banner, but the Tigers JV reflected an 'Est.2000' one.

    The NRL have been playing with the stats/histories to suit themselves, and I think the ARLC Commission making a strong stance and sensible decision on how ALL official stats are to be managed into the future, would have some strong support from fans.
     
  20. Chip and Chase

    Chip and Chase True Supporter Staff Member Administrator Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

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    The 2002 argument is a strong one, I can't see the commission can argue against those facts.
     
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