better than Foran?

[maxta]

The key to Foran playing at the line was not his vision & selective ball, more willing to be gamer than the next 5/8 , taking the ball to the line & getting wacked by a backrower....some of the other talented ballplayers tend to pass a fraction earlier, but offer more than a short ball or 2nd man option, making it far more obvious when copping a late hit.
That Imo was Forans trump with his passing game, putting his body on the line, that also slipped away once his attitude slid.
Walker will be aiming for 1 on 1 situations, 2nd phase, the support card more so than ball playing & this is good...plays to Walkers strength & gives DCE the opportunity to organise & scheme...should compliment each other well.

 

[Technical Coach]

Foran has an ordinary kicking game, lacks pace and really gets by on being a competitor.

Foran has a decent small kicking game for repeat sets, his pace is underrated especially when changing gears off his sidestep running into a backpedaling defensive line, plays hard at and through the line and defensively plays beyond his size.(obviously not the last 18 months-2 years with injuries)

On top of that his ballplaying is the best of any 5/8 in the competition along with his leadership skills.(that once again have taken a back step for some parts of the last 2 years)

 

[Technical Coach]

The key to Foran playing at the line was not his vision & selective ball, more willing to be gamer than the next 5/8 , taking the ball to the line & getting wacked by a backrower....some of the other talented ballplayers tend to pass a fraction earlier, but offer more than a short ball or 2nd man option, making it far more obvious when copping a late hit.
That Imo was Forans trump with his passing game, putting his body on the line, that also slipped away once his attitude slid.
Walker will be aiming for 1 on 1 situations, 2nd phase, the support card more so than ball playing & this is good...plays to Walkers strength & gives DCE the opportunity to organise & scheme...should compliment each other well.

Walkers one on one and 2nd phase can only be utilized if the forwards roll forward, he is reliant on many other factors working in our favour before he becomes a trump card.

All this talk about more sharpness out of dummy half is all well and good but with the pack Manly have had for the last few years a sharp Dummy half would not have made much difference either.

We need sharpness,explosiveness and power in the forwards which then feeds into a good dummy half who is sharp and creative out of dummy half(with hopefully clean, crisp organised distribution) and the halves playing with room and numbers against a backpedalling defensive line.

It is not always the case of sharpness and creativeness out of dummy half feeds into good forward roll and space in the halves, it can but it is over exaggerated in some parts.

Playing at Brookie at night on a heavy wet surface not even the sharpest dummy half players do much. Ballins defensive work rate and crisp clinical ball distribution helped out our poor ineffective forward pack as our go forward was more reliant on the outside backs ball spreads along with the back row.

 

[maxta]

Agree to disagree TC....
An explosive dummy half to take advantage of todays faster game is a massive bonus.
Playing off a platform layed by Kapow,Myles, Trjobovic will add far more time to the backs, especially the halves.
Walker who as SER8 pointed out will play that Milford style running game, will no doubt benefit because these new components will ensure the opposition defence will be far less organised & on the back foot, unlike 2015.
Time will tell but I'm expecting an up tempo style footy from Manly & the signings are not just quality, but complement modern day footy.

 

[Budgie]

I can't imagine we can compare the two until we see what a two years older Foran who actually decides to try again might look like.

 

[Snake]

The key to Foran playing at the line was not his vision & selective ball, more willing to be gamer than the next 5/8 , taking the ball to the line & getting wacked by a backrower....some of the other talented ballplayers tend to pass a fraction earlier, but offer more than a short ball or 2nd man option, making it far more obvious when copping a late hit.
That Imo was Forans trump with his passing game, putting his body on the line, that also slipped away once his attitude slid.
Walker will be aiming for 1 on 1 situations, 2nd phase, the support card more so than ball playing & this is good...plays to Walkers strength & gives DCE the opportunity to organise & scheme...should compliment each other well.

This is absolutely spot on.

 

[highlandeagle]

The key to Foran playing at the line was not his vision & selective ball, more willing to be gamer than the next 5/8 , taking the ball to the line & getting wacked by a backrower....some of the other talented ballplayers tend to pass a fraction earlier, but offer more than a short ball or 2nd man option, making it far more obvious when copping a late hit.
That Imo was Forans trump with his passing game, putting his body on the line, that also slipped away once his attitude slid.
Walker will be aiming for 1 on 1 situations, 2nd phase, the support card more so than ball playing & this is good...plays to Walkers strength & gives DCE the opportunity to organise & scheme...should compliment each other well.

Foran was just Martin Lang reincarnated as a five eight

 

[Technical Coach]

Agree to disagree TC....
An explosive dummy half to take advantage of todays faster game is a massive bonus.
Playing off a platform layed by Kapow,Myles, Trjobovic will add far more time to the backs, especially the halves.
Walker who as SER8 pointed out will play that Milford style running game, will no doubt benefit because these new components will ensure the opposition defence will be far less organised & on the back foot, unlike 2015.
Time will tell but I'm expecting an up tempo style footy from Manly & the signings are not just quality, but complement modern day footy.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all but responding to the last few years of people wanting sharpness out of dummy half thinking that is what would of helped our go forward when in actual fact in wouldn't have.

I agree with a more explosive power based forward pack a sharp dummy half can feed off this and take advantage, but way too many people are making out that a sharp dummy half fixes all go forward problems and it just doesn't work out that way for the most part.(yes holding up and engaging ruck defenders helps not easy to achieve after a slow play the ball off powder puff hit ups or predictable one out hit ups)

Stats have shown the speed of play over the last few years has been greatly exaggerated and in most cases has been the same after the initial rounds of trying to set an example.(Brian Smith showed an article that speed of play has not changed), in saying that i do feel this year the speed will move up a notch.

The game felt like it was speeding up more so while watching Manly games as we struggled to contain the go forward enabling fast play the balls against us.

Cowboys and Broncos attacking wise and even defensively are a step back from the levels of Roosters, Manly and Souths of previous seasons. Cowboys did improve their power game,directness and better structures that held up under pressure along with discipline -----Broncos i still don't rate.

Basically Roosters tanked, Souths tanked earlier and had a hangover from the previous season along with the losses of Burgess and Teo making them soft, Manly went backwards, Melb have been stagnant for years, Dogs too fat and lacking quality halves all this lead to allowing others to take their place.

We will be playing more up tempo not because it is a change of philosophy (Toovey has been pushing this style for years) but we have more depth to do so and a better forward mix along with sharpness out of dummy half.

 

[Technical Coach]

This is absolutely spot on.

Name one 5/8 who offers a bigger variety of passing beyond what Foran has "consistently" offered even if it is not at the line like Foran. (passing at the line is what differentiates the average player to the best ballplayers)

The pet play and safe play that is over-used is the second man play as ballplayers mature and become more confident they start to use the higher risk faceball that Foran was starting to use a little more. The short ball either holding the ball up or double pumping Foran has used also.

What i wanted to see Foran do more is step back early against the grain and use variety off his inside hip passing left to right, the few times he did almost always success, annoying to see Foran sticking to the structures.

Also the holding up of central defenders with a repetitive double pump second man play left to right pass to DCE was boring to watch but served the purpose of giving space to DCE on the right. Basically holding the central defenders in a more modern skilled way in the same way Toovey did for Lyons in a more simplistic running fashion with low skill levels.

 

[maxta]

Name one 5/8 who offers a bigger variety of passing beyond what Foran has "consistently" offered even if it is not at the line like Foran. (passing at the line is what differentiates the average player to the best ballplayers)

The pet play and safe play that is over-used is the second man play as ballplayers mature and become more confident they start to use the higher risk faceball that Foran was starting to use a little more. The short ball either holding the ball up or double pumping Foran has used also.

What i wanted to see Foran do more is step back early against the grain and use variety off his inside hip passing left to right, the few times he did almost always success, annoying to see Foran sticking to the structures.

Also the holding up of central defenders with a repetitive double pump second man play left to right pass to DCE was boring to watch but served the purpose of giving space to DCE on the right. Basically holding the central defenders in a more modern skilled way in the same way Toovey did for Lyons in a more simplistic running fashion with low skill levels.

Theres no disguising the fact Foran is a tough terrier like player more so than silky skills on the ball.
His options playing outside is due to his lack of organising skills & the only period his inside balls were successful with Tony Williams & a lessor extent Buhrer, was when Hasler had set plays where he played a few steps wider of the ruck ala Sharks move on recent times.
His vision to hit a centre or winger with a cutout pass instinctively was a rare sight, usually opting for the closest runner regardless of the defence set, at times leading to a pressure situation for his runner & players like Tagatese, Scott to wipe him out legally.
Foran done his best work straightening up & willing to take on the line but plenty of 5/8's have & do offer far better inside service in relation to passing game.

 

[midsteyne]

walker is younger bigger and probably less injury prone,than foz but its chalk and cheese,walker will find his own niche at brooky

 

[maxta]

PS - Anyone who wants the key organiser for Manly in attack & defence
His name is Brett Stewart, really looking for DCE to assume a far more dominant role in this capacity in 2016 under Barrett & this is what's required for him to step up to that next level.

 

[Technical Coach]

Theres no disguising the fact Foran is a tough terrier like player more so than silky skills on the ball.
His options playing outside is due to his lack of organising skills & the only period his inside balls were successful with Tony Williams & a lessor extent Buhrer, was when Hasler had set plays where he played a few steps wider of the ruck ala Sharks move on recent times.
His vision to hit a centre or winger with a cutout pass instinctively was a rare sight, usually opting for the closest runner regardless of the defence set, at times leading to a pressure situation for his runner & players like Tagatese, Scott to wipe him out legally.
Foran done his best work straightening up & willing to take on the line but plenty of 5/8's have & do offer far better inside service in relation to passing game.

Not sure what you mean by "his options playing outside is due to lack of organising skills" our attack looked more crisp and efficient on the left due to his organising and crisp ball movement be it early simple ball to allow Matai space or at the line.

The inside balls to Williams are not what i am talking about, they were mostly just unders---Williams couldn't hit a hole or run a line unless the floodgates opened and he didn't fear getting hit.

The reasons why Foran or DCE couldn't showcase more so their variety of ballplaying is due to playing behind a forward pack for most of their careers not giving them space and forward momentum along with overly structured left and right plays Des used(in part to simplify play for the young halves and to have an option on each side at all times)

I mean DCE for the most part has been a right edge off the back of second man play runner or hitting the short side with a show and go, you can see he has ballplaying in him but hardly ever uses it either.

Under pressure DCE has made way too many errors and poor options in the redzone but i don't blame either player entirely in this department as it was amazing to see how well they both played behind a poor forward pack.

As soon as Forans attitude, form and confidence improved from recovering from injuries Manly's season improved last year and had more of an influence on results than DCE.

 

[Captain Moondog]

better than Foran?

 

[maxta]

Not sure what you mean by "his options playing outside is due to lack of organising skills" our attack looked more crisp and efficient on the left due to his organising and crisp ball movement be it early simple ball to allow Matai space or at the line.

The inside balls to Williams are not what i am talking about, they were mostly just unders---Williams couldn't hit a hole or run a line unless the floodgates opened and he didn't fear getting hit.

The reasons why Foran or DCE couldn't showcase more so their variety of ballplaying is due to playing behind a forward pack for most of their careers not giving them space and forward momentum along with overly structured left and right plays Des used(in part to simplify play for the young halves and to have an option on each side at all times)

I mean DCE for the most part has been a right edge off the back of second man play runner or hitting the short side with a show and go, you can see he has ballplaying in him but hardly ever uses it either.

Under pressure DCE has made way too many errors and poor options in the redzone but i don't blame either player entirely in this department as it was amazing to see how well they both played behind a poor forward pack.

As soon as Forans attitude, form and confidence improved from recovering from injuries Manly's season improved last year and had more of an influence on results than DCE.

Again I state clearly, majority of organising comes from Snake Stewart as does the majority of money balls that lead to tries on the left side- not Foran.
Foran has 1 trick I will explain.
He takes the ball, preferably on the run aiming just outside the A defender....he straightens, double pumps the ball waiting for the B defender to make a decision....if the B defender turns his feet in to play at Foran , he throws the telegraphed short ball at speed, still hard to defend if attack has momentum....OR.....if the B defender keeps straight feet Foran will show & go attempting to burn & bust that A defender on the outside.
The Williams inside ball example was simple....though telegraghed because he ran hard busted his man 1 in 5 games, making the predictable INSIDE ball work.
The reason I called it worked being wider, Forans trump card playing direct & often close to the ruck, will generally get his inside runner killed by the monsters in the middle, its Snake who with his impeccable timing & burst of speed can exploit that ruck area & come out alive with enough evasive skill to not get belted & sometimes, burst out the other side.
Again, Foran is a tough robust 5/8 with limited vision of classic ballplayers like Thurston, Johns, Cliffy who can only play short inside , outside or 2nd man when Stewart TELLS him its on.
There is no cutout pass to a 2nd or 3rd man so his ballrunner or himself are often bashed due to this predictable playbook.
As for his unders, dropping players off....it defies his 1 trump card - playing direct.
Foran playing sideways, even lateral is again limited as he lacks the speed to stretch defensive lines, Shaun Johnson types can do this , but Foran will be smashed into retirement with his hapless runner.

 

[Technical Coach]

Again I state clearly, majority of organising comes from Snake Stewart as does the majority of money balls that lead to tries on the left side- not Foran.
Foran has 1 trick I will explain.
He takes the ball, preferably on the run aiming just outside the A defender....he straightens, double pumps the ball waiting for the B defender to make a decision....if the B defender turns his feet in to play at Foran , he throws the telegraphed short ball at speed, still hard to defend if attack has momentum....OR.....if the B defender keeps straight feet Foran will show & go attempting to burn & bust that A defender on the outside.
The Williams inside ball example was simple....though telegraghed because he ran hard busted his man 1 in 5 games, making the predictable INSIDE ball work.
The reason I called it worked being wider, Forans trump card playing direct & often close to the ruck, will generally get his inside runner killed by the monsters in the middle, its Snake who with his impeccable timing & burst of speed can exploit that ruck area & come out alive with enough evasive skill to not get belted & sometimes, burst out the other side.
Again, Foran is a tough robust 5/8 with limited vision of classic ballplayers like Thurston, Johns, Cliffy who can only play short inside , outside or 2nd man when Stewart TELLS him its on.
There is no cutout pass to a 2nd or 3rd man so his ballrunner or himself are often bashed due to this predictable playbook.
As for his unders, dropping players off....it defies his 1 trump card - playing direct.
Foran playing sideways, even lateral is again limited as he lacks the speed to stretch defensive lines, Shaun Johnson types can do this , but Foran will be smashed into retirement with his hapless runner.

LOL at Stewart doing the organising are you serious,(Stewart is just floated around on the edge corridors like all good FB's should do taking advantage of created numbers---does not require "vision" lol) and what you call money balls are just feeding players on his outside that have developed an overlap from the toughness and holding up plays of Foran and Ballin earlier in the piece.
(Either hits the next player to his left or if the centre and winger comes in passes to the winger, between the two offering 95% of the so called "assists")

Being a 5/8 and playing on the edge is always going to limit the variations on offer and the plays are mostly off the back of rehearsed structures. This is not the fault of Foran, just the way Rugby League is played especially under the high interchange rule with fresh players on the field and way too many stoppages.(Add more fatigue/openings requires less structure to create openings)


Foran in the last two years and yes during his poor performance period was occasionally cutting out two players adding face balls and working more inside hip plays especially under Toovey allowing a little more freedom to the halves.


The good thing about retaining DCE is i feel he still has a freshness, not playing with debilitating back injuries and a more rounded skillset, does not mean i feel he executes his rounded skillset worthy of his standing in the game. I still feel under pressure DCE makes way too many poor and rushed decisions.

Seems people on these forums have short memories more so now when holding a bias grudge.

PS
(Hmm Thurston finally did something behind a powerful forward pack yippppeee, put Thurston behind the pathetic pack Manly have been struggling with for the last few years----DCE and Foran are way ahead of Thurston and i would pick both ahead of Thurston any day of the week.)

 

[Technical Coach]

Note some fine passes at 1:39 and again at 1:57(when he basically just said to himself "stuff this the game is over i'm going to have some ballplaying fun and take some unstructured risks, floating on the opposite side to his natural ballplaying side)

This is what we could have looked forward to from Foran in the back end of his career playing like Fittler if we provided more punch and go forward----ballplaying confidence improves with maturity and experience.

 

[JenEagle]

Those passes at 1.39 and 1.57 were absolutely magic. As good as any you would see in either league or union from some of the greatest ball players.

 

[maxta]

[QUOTE="Technical Coach, post: 752163, membeMEDIA=youtube]o0kprsgY3yE[/MEDIA]





To pretend Foran is better than Thurston loses any attempted credibility from your post, but I was entertained by other parts also.
The classic desperation has set in to bring in 2 youtube highlights....I think Tom Wright threw more quality balls in his 2 minute highlight reel.....Funny stuff
Pity these were not prominent in his Manly games.
Forans game is based on the games key elements, toughness & competitiveness...not vision or skillful pass selections.
These cutout passes from Foran are as rare as footage of big foot & about as real....as for unstructured plays....Forans game is built on structure with his strength being able to endure more punishment than his opponent in the contest.
As for your opinion of Snake Stewart, just shows your ignorance of the modern day fullback, with Stewart the very best in this organising department...I will add he is also exceptional with his talk & organisation in defence....but to shed light on Stewarts options after creating that overlap himself with pace & timing, his final pass is top shelf.
As for minimising Stewarts contribution with his passing game, those highlights you spent 2 days finding on Foran.....Stewarts will show more vision, timing & execution & there will 200...not 2

 

[Darren]

Barrett was a champion 5/8 which also will help Walker. I reckon Brett and Walker may interchange at times to mix it up.