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Are our players going backwards under Des

Discussion in 'Rugby League Forum' started by Darren, Apr 21, 2008.

  1. Darren

    Darren Well-Known Member

    +507 / 20
    starting to worry about missing these key players that come on the market, maybe its the negative way Des coaches that is stopping these skilled players ala carney and now tupou from coming

    watching us this year and the monotenous way we play could be a negative in recruitment. Look at our reps from last year and compare this year!!

    orford now not considered in top 8 halfbacks in the game, tele last week
    kite: aussie rep but has lost form and not mentioned, struggle to make NSW bench
    b stewart: slater destroyed it in match up game, probably lost the aussie jumper
    g stewart: talked about last year as possible origin, no mention this year
    j lyon: gone from international to scraping in state of origin
    s bell: qld rep to no mention at all of reps

    How worrying is this, 12 months ago, b and g stewart, bell, orford, kitey, choc were on fire. Lyon hasn't played well since coming to Manly.
  2. Garts

    Garts Well-Known Member

    +667 / 18
    Did we have a different coach 12 months ago when those players were on fire?  No.  Players have generally improved while under Des, Lyon is someone that has not, but he has looked good at centre when put there just not 5/8.
  3. willstyles

    willstyles Active Member

    +4 / 0
    I'm not shattered that we've missed out on Tupou. He's a very, very good second rower and would've added a touch of class to our forward pack - and there's no doubt he has a fantastic impact on games - but the one I am pissed about missing is Carney. He would've been f*cking great for Manly. Carney stayed at Canberra for the stability of life and to be loyal to his club, whereas Tupou wanted to play under the Australian coach (and the bloke who turned him into the player he is today).

    As for our players going backwards....Orford/Bell they're both getting older, slower and have declined pretty rapidly since leaving Melbourne.

    Kite became an Aussie forward under the coaching of Hasler. Despite his poor form he's actually still in the frame for the centenary Test.

    Glenn Stewart is another who came out of nowhere under the coaching of Hasler (in fact, his style of play really seems to excel due to Hasler's style of attack).

    Two other blokes who improved in leaps and bounds under Hasler - Matai and Monas.

    It's fair to say some of our big guns have been backpeddling in terms of their performances. I don't think it is entirely fair to blame that all on Hasler, although Des does have plenty of other faults.

    PONTIAN SEA EAGLE Well-Known Member

    +936 / 77
    Look it was a gutsy win last friday night but seriously if we were playing a good side we would have lost in the second half.To me the problem is des is not a problem fixer.
  5. Fluffy

    Fluffy Well-Known Member

    +3,433 / 125
    Some skills have improved, others gone backwards
  6. Si

    Si Member

    +2 / 0
    Thats why having good support staff is essential. You need an assistant coach, and specialist coaches that compliment each other. Do we have that?

    I think that mostly Des' influence on the majority of players has been great. Sure he has made some mistakes (Lyon at 5/8) but as someone else already mentioned several players have flourished under his direction.
  7. Canteen Worker

    Canteen Worker Well-Known Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

    +212 / 5
    You judge a career and a season on 30 weeks, not on 6 weeks. It is a long year and I will be happy if we are playing well at the other end. There is way too much alarmist sort of thinking here at the moment.

    The good coaches know the comp is won in September and have their team firing then. Hopefully Des has learnt that. He is loyal to his players and we have improved from being near spooners to Grand Finalists in four years.

    What we also don't know is what injuries are being carried by players. It affects form and all players have to put up with knocks to get on the paddock.

    I think Des is a great coach, has the big picture and we should afford him some space to do the job. He wants the same thing as us - a premiership.
  8. SilentBob

    SilentBob Well-Known Member

    +3 / 0
    I think almost everyone has improved individually.
    Kite has shaken off the butter fingers tag and become a regular rep player.
    Brett Stewart has gone from a fast attacking runner to a passer/kicker and a top defensive fullback.
    Glen Stewart has gone great, a few years ago most thought he would amount to nothing because of how small he was.
    Lyon, we all know the problem here.
    Bell, he hasn't been the same since his face got smashed, not Dazzlers fault.
    Orford is just Orford, he was the same before he came here.
    Bryant and Robertson have gone from fringe Canberra players to two of the first picked for Manly.
    Bani has shown up to be an awesome young player with a big future.
    King has finally pulled his finger out the last 2 years.
    Watmough has shown some consistency and discipline he was lacking, still not great, but much better.
    Matai has come on leaps and bounds.

    I'm not going to write off the long term improvements in most of these players because of a short period of average form.

    The point about missing out on players isn't so bad, besides Tupou how many players have left their club to join another? Very few if any, so it's not like they are picking other clubs over Manly, just staying loyal which is understandable.
  9. The Wheel

    The Wheel Well-Known Member

    +1,703 / 70
    Hopefully missing out on Topou means we can have a fair dinkum crack at good young half & 5/8 - not sure who though
  10. fLIP

    fLIP UFO Hunter

    +784 / 15
    The team's done nothing but improve under Des Haslers coaching. Every year we get a little bit better. Even this year I'd say we're about the same as last. The comp's just got better.
  11. willstyles

    willstyles Active Member

    +4 / 0
    I'd say it is a bit of both. Comp has got better but we are not playing anywhere near the quality of football we were for all but two games last year (i'm including the loss to Penrith in that one as well....that was a shocker).
  12. Corso_Pete

    Corso_Pete Well-Known Member Premium Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

    +35 / 0
    Since Hasler has been the NRL coach our defence has been amongst the best each season and again this season this is continuing. For better or worse we have to accept that Hasler coaches a defensive orientated team and this year, as well as last year so many of our matches were not won with attacking flair, but rather defensive determination.

    I suppose we have to decide whether we want to win "ugly" or lose by playing attractive brand of football?
  13. Canteen Worker

    Canteen Worker Well-Known Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

    +212 / 5
    You also have to say on this post that it is about the team. League is a team game and so it is essential that players can fit into a plan based around the needs and strengths of that team. At times individual players (who may be very good) don't fit into the plan or pattern.

    The main issue for some players is that they want to play rep football and to be in a winning team can enahance that. Brett Stewart has gone from a Reserve Grader to test fullback under Des and Bani has come from nothing to an outstanding prospect. King has played City and Kite has represented Australia. Beaver was washed up as a rep player but has since played Origin and Tests again. Watmough has played Origin. I think he has runs on the board.
  14. Ryan

    Ryan Well-Known Member

    +5,690 / 261
    Canteen, maaaaaate - all I have to say to you is:

    Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
    It must have been cold there in my shadow,
    to never have sunlight on your face.
    You were content to let me shine, that's your way.
    You always walked a step behind.

    So I was the one with all the glory,
    while you were the one with all the strength.
    A beautiful face without a name for so long.
    A beautiful smile to hide the pain.

    Did you ever know that you're my hero,
    and everything I would like to be?
    I can fly higher than an eagle,
    'cause you are the wind beneath my wings.

    It might have appeared to go unnoticed,
    but I've got it all here in my heart.
    I want you to know I know the truth, of course I know it.
    I would be nothing without you.

    Did you ever know that you're my hero?
    You're everything I wish I could be.
    I could fly higher than an eagle,
    'cause you are the wind beneath my wings.

    Did I ever tell you you're my hero?
    You're everything, everything I wish I could be.
    Oh, and I, I could fly higher than an eagle,
    'cause you are the wind beneath my wings,
    'cause you are the wind beneath my wings.

    Oh, the wind beneath my wings.
    You, you, you, you are the wind beneath my wings.
    Fly, fly, fly away. You let me fly so high.
    Oh, you, you, you, the wind beneath my wings.
    Oh, you, you, you, the wind beneath my wings.

    Fly, fly, fly high against the sky,
    so high I almost touch the sky.
    Thank you, thank you,
    thank God for you, the wind beneath my wings.
  15. Canteen Worker

    Canteen Worker Well-Known Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

    +212 / 5
    I am sweet as long as you don't actually sing it to me Ryan. :)

    I look forward to your insightful commentary on this matter - we await your pearls of wisdom.  ;D
  16. Ryan

    Ryan Well-Known Member

    +5,690 / 261
    Are our players going back under Hasler Canteen? Some no. Some yes. Some yes, but not due to Des Hasler @ all (most has already been explained by others above), but for the record:-

    1. Brett Stewart (Improved dramatically)
    2. Michael Robertson (Improved)
    3. Steven Bell (Has gradually deteriorated due to age / hesitancy I think. His injury must haunt him.
    4. Steve Matai (Improved dramatically - most coaches would systematically eraticate his aggression. Des embraces it which is perfect)
    5. Michael Bani (Not around long enough to tell - but fantastic acquisition)
    6. Jamie Lyon (Gone backward, as he has no room to play, and probably doesn't suit 5/8, but Des is infatuated with him there)
    7. Matt Orford (Hmmmm...dunno really - too tough. I think he WAS a tad more consistent at Melbourne, but has he had an opportunity to properly run the ship yet?)
    8. Jason King (Definitely Improved. The stats speak for themselves)
    9. Matt Ballin (He has gone backward in 08 somewhat, but it's a different system this year, and may take another 5-6 rounds to gel)
    10. Brent Kite (Definitely Improved). He was a SOO player when he got here, he's an Australian rep player now. Gotto admit I don't like him in the back row though. Seems to make him a bit quieter)
    11. Anthony Watmough (Dramatic Improvement)
    12. Steve Menzies (Is as consistent as ever. Age shall not weary him !!)
    13. Glenn Stewart (Improved dramatically. I was concerned about his form in 08 up until Parramatta)

    14. Heath Le'Strange (Same as Bani above)
    15. Adam Cuthbertson (Like Orford - a tough one. He was a gun thin looking wide running back rower early in Premier League. He's a totally different player now, and was highly sought after - so yeah - improved big time IMO)
    16. Josh Perry (I know it's only one season - but he was a shadow of his former self compared to what he is now when at Newcastle. So one off season, and it looks as though Des has inspired Perry - improved substantially)
    17. Luke Williamson (Luke's Luke. He has been the same player all his career, but I DO think he's a better player today than say around 2003/2004.

    18. George Rose - Has grown another leg so to speak since coming to Manly, but then broke it. I hope he adds as much impact as he did in early 07 going forward.
    19. Glenn Hall - Like Rose, Hall has gone forward in leaps and bounds. I'm VERY disappointed he's not given more 1st grade time. I really rate Hall.
    20. Jack Afamasaga - He was ok in 07, and it was suggested with a full off season under him, he would be a gun, so don't really know yet if he has improved.
    21. Jason Wells - Like Hall, before I make my mind up, I'd like to see him in 1st grade more.
    22. Clint Halden - Definitely improved under Des - injury free, I reckon he'd be playing a bit of 1st grade this year. Des has brought him along well. 3
    23. Vic Mauro - from what I have seen of him in 1st grade, Des has done wonders with the kid. Definitely forward.

    So, there you have it mate. I hope this is satisfactory. Whilst "I look forward to your insightful commentary on this matter - we await your pearls of wisdom" was a bit derogatory, and the use of the term "we" suggest a gang mentallity, I answered openly, and honestly.....but Dave, you are still:-

    The Wind Beneath my Wings.
  17. Canteen Worker

    Canteen Worker Well-Known Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

    +212 / 5
    Not sure why you are specifically 'targetting' my response when I have said similar to six other posters on this thread??? Fair response though with good depth!

    The references to the song of course are not derogatory. Note the wink and cheesy grin and the tone! :)
  18. DSM5

    DSM5 Well-Known Member 2016 Tipping Competitor

    +516 / 0
    Look, Hasler is definitley an excellent defensive coach, which is fine, but what we need is an attack coach AS WELL.  His insistence on Lyon playing out of position and sticking to that plan was a crap decision last year and this year as well.  Bell should go of to the park to regain composure, and should have last year when it was obvious he was suffering from gun shyness and Orford continues to play with little thought and can't kick for ****e.  The definitive and most important positions of 7, 6 and 9 are the worry for our team and have not been addressed.  Who is at fault?  I give in.         

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